# 15 Luke Taylor on Men's Mental Health

In this episode we talk Men's Mental Health with Luke Taylor. 

Luke spent 14 years as a Detective in the NSW Police Force, including stints as a Homicide Detective and in the Child Protection Squad. He then spent several years as a Highschool teacher, and now is the founder of Crime Story, an experiential learning venture. 

Listen in as we talk about why it's harder to talk about men's mental health, what's broken in the way that the Police Force responds to the mental health of their officers, and how Luke was able to pull himself out of the depths of his own mental health crisis.

We also learn about the origins of Crime Story, and the benefits of play-based learning for older students and adults. 

Find out more about Crime Story, or contact Luke, here: https://crimestory.com.au/

Transcripts available for each episode on the website: https://enabled.buzzsprout.com

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This episode is brought to you by Ability Advocators:
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Transcript

Luke Taylor: [00:00:00] How's that? Yeah. Oh, I got a big graph. 

Colin: You got a big one. 

Luke: Look at my ECG. 

Colin: Look at that.

Luke: This could go anywhere. We've never met. This could go anywhere. This is how I teach. 

Kirsty: Great. 

Colin: I told you he was a very good teacher from a student's point of view, possibly not the organizational point of view.

Kirsty: Awesome. Okay. Very exciting.

Hello and welcome to Enabled, the podcast where we talk about, normalise, and celebrate disability and mental health. And we've got Luke Taylor on the show today. Hi Luke. 

Luke: Hi. 

Kirsty: Thanks for being here. 

Luke: My pleasure. 

Kirsty: I'm actually, I'm really excited that you're here because Colin and I were talking this week and we realised something about our podcast that has sort of been going on without us noticing, but is potentially a bit of an unhelpful kind of lean that we've had. We've had about 14 episodes released so far, and with the exception of [00:01:00] one, every single one of our guests have been women. The one man that we have had, Dennis Owen, he was fantastic, but he wasn't planned, was he? 

Colin: No, he wasn't. 

Kirsty: It was a unexpected sort of like, off the cuff, let's interview Dennis.

I've been actually really thinking about why it is that we really haven't actually had any men on the show so far. I'm just going to put an idea out there and see what you guys think of it. 

Maybe one of the reasons is because we, men, women, everyone, I think we actually find it harder to talk about men's mental health.

What do you think? 

Luke Taylor: Completely. It is, it's a very difficult thing. It's something in our upbringing. Almost precludes us from talking about it, whether it's this stoicism that we have to go to work, we have to keep battling, we have to be strong, all of those stereotypes that are present. And you're right too because obviously I'm married and I've got a daughter and I'm very aware of, you know, images for girls and for women and things like that.

But there's so many issues out there for [00:02:00] boys and blokes as well that we fight against silently, you know, throughout my whole life. Like I've had some incidents in my past where I've just been screaming out for help in my head, but did not know how to actually verbalize or vocalize that.

Kirsty: Another reason why I think you're a great candidate to be here and to be talking about men's mental health is because I imagine that you've had almost an amplified experience of the difficulty that we can have with men's mental health because you were in the police force for 14 years.

And that real sort of warrior mindset of like, I'm running to the danger and everyone else is running away… In that kind of collective identity, I imagine it's really hard to create a culture of vulnerability.

Luke Taylor: Yes, completely. And my upbringing never actually set me up that way either. My father was just an absolutely beautiful, brilliant man. Very demonstrative, affectionate, and would cry. 

Kirsty: Really unusual for that generation.

Luke Taylor: Oh, [00:03:00] completely, yeah. So, I was raised, and I would have all these open talks with Dad, so I was always prepared on that level to be a little bit open and be vulnerable. But I remember when I first got to Blacktown, there were a couple of police who were off long term sick, and then one of them would come back and it didn't quite work out.

And it was like they had a disease. And it was almost like you could catch it. And it was never spoken about. If you were in a position where you went off on sick leave, you weren't contacted. There was a lack of support and things like that. So it was quite a very challenging issue, not just for men, but for women as well.

Kirsty: For sure. I'm curious as to how, I mean, you mentioned that you were raised almost counter-culturally with a father who was very emotionally literate. And then, you know, after the police force, you went into this very sort of creative side of things. What was the appeal of joining the police force for you?

Luke Taylor: I just wanted action and fun and [00:04:00] adventure. I was studying economics at Uni at the time. So anything had to be a bit more exciting than some of the stuff we were doing there. But I just love the action and the adventure. It wasn’t until two years into the job that I started to reflect on the fact that, Oh, I'm actually doing some good.

Kirsty: Right. One of the hallmarks about being a police officer is that that exposure to trauma is immense. What most of us would only experience on the worst day of our lives, the police force are being exposed to just regularly over and over and over again. How does that affect you? 

Luke Taylor: It's like the straw that breaks the camel's back.

And again, everyone has a different point. And I felt, I actually got to a point, I was probably about 10 years in and I actually questioned whether I was emotionally cold or, or why things weren't affecting me. And then when I moved to the Banglo area, and there was a couple of significant murders and jobs that I went to there, I had just reached that, that particular point where...[00:05:00] 

My basket was getting full because we're not taught how to actually unburden ourselves. So going back, we used to have, after a serious incident, the police in all their wisdom would bring in an external psychologist to have a debriefing with everybody that was involved in that major traumatic incident.

And I remember one particular one - a pretty significant event, a murder, and every police officer that was involved on the shift that day -  They said, you have to come in on Saturday. We're not paying anyone to come in. If you want to go, it's for your own good. But we're not paying you overtime to come in.

If you've just come off night shift or whatever you've done. Make your way in. 

Kirsty: Right. We really care about you and your mental health.

Luke: Oh yeah. And then we sat in there and we were all sitting around in a circle and I'm talking some of the most grizzled, hardened, toughest blokes you've come across. And then you’re put in this room and you're a junior detective and you're sitting there and this psychologist says, okay, let's go around the room.

Who would like to share their feelings on what happened? [00:06:00] And you look at the two blokes next to you who were… Everyone's got their arms crossed in a defensive position because the police debrief was, you go to the pub and you have a drink. But I wasn't a drinker, so it sort of put me a little bit at odds as a traditional or stereotypical detective anyway, the fact that I didn't buy into, into that.. I've never been much of a drinker. 

So we're sitting there looking at ourselves in a debriefing thinking who's going to be the first to speak up and nobody did. So he stands there for 10 minutes, just looking at everyone and thinking, this guy is not, he does not understand what is going on. And that was what, if there was a briefing or debriefing, that's how it happened. 

Kirsty: Did you find that that culture of drinking, is that as a result of that sort of sub-par mental health culture in the police? Is it all sort of intertwined or is it just part of, I don't know, I mean, is it just part of the Australian culture, I guess?

Luke Taylor: Yeah, I was going to say, I think it's, it's equally as part of our Australian [00:07:00] culture.

I've worked in a lot of industries, obviously teaching, I've worked in the building industry. 

The police side, different again because it is, it's a bit of a siege mentality. And we used to do night shifts seven nights in a row, and it's the one team and then you finish up and you have a drink, and you are, you're working in some pretty hairy situations where you do build a really close relationship with those you're working with.

If you're not careful, you can lose that outside perspective of the world. And my dad used to say to me, he said, don't ever lose contact with the outside world. He said, you'll get blinkers and you could see it happening. But very hard to stop. Yeah. Very hard to stop. 

Kirsty: How did you deal with that trauma?

Luke Taylor: I didn't. I only dealt with it when it became such an issue that I had a complete mental breakdown. 

Kirsty: Yeah, right. So, you would be exposed to like, a murder [00:08:00] or sex crimes. For a while you worked in child protection. Again, incredibly necessary job, but I can't imagine what that does to your mental health.

How long were you in that unit for? 

Luke: Four years. 

Kirsty: Wow. Is there a lot of turnover? 

Luke Taylor: Huge. Huge amount of turnover. Yeah. And hopefully, I'm hearing that they have put things in place now, because another half hearted approach to our mental health was in the child protection sector, we had to have quarterly psych appointments.

With an independent psychologist. So over the course of probably a year, the psychologist that I was seeing was flagging pretty big warning signs. But that information doesn't get back to the police. So, after I was discharged and medical records and went through the whole procedure, I'd say, look, these warning signs, they were being flagged.

But through some sort of privacy thing, they weren't getting through. And I even went to the police medical [00:09:00] down in Sydney after, I had an incident and went off sick, and, you know, you obviously, for safety, you have your firearms taken off you and things like that. And I went down to get cleared to come back to work.

I told them what was going on and the PMO, the police medical officer, looked at me and I'm seething with anger and pain and all this is coming out. And they said, that's actually a good thing. I said, what do you mean? They said, oh, that's a good thing that you can vent and do that. That's a good sign. I said, Can't you see what it's doing to me?

No, you're fine. You can have your gun back. Off you go. 

Kirsty: Oh, wow. 

Luke: Yeah, so straight away I thought, wow, there's something in this system. And now you keep battling on again and you just, yeah, then you get to a point that literally I was awake and I was laying under my bed and couldn't, couldn't face the world for a long time there.

Colin:  If you had the ability to do something now, that would change the way officers can deal with their mental health issues, or is there something that you would go, you need to do this, [00:10:00] please? 

Luke: Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. And I don't think there's one answer. I think it's a number of things that have to be put in place because everybody's different.

We all know that like trauma, especially PTSD and the things, some of it doesn't manifest immediately. So you've got to do follow up calls. You've got to check in and it's changing the culture. So it can't happen fast. And this, again, this is for every industry. I'm not just saying police anymore.

This is every industry. We've got to have a way where we can also do it in a more low key. Like it's got to be one on ones. And I know we all have, most businesses have employee assistance program where you can get so many appointments to go and speak to somebody. And that's a good step. But with certain industries, you also need inside knowledge.

So you need somebody who is acutely aware of the history of that occupation and how these barriers have developed. You can't come out as a 22 year old, straight out of uni, cheaper psychologists, [00:11:00] available on entry level. So we don't have people who understand.

Kirsty: Yep. Yeah, and you do hear this a lot as well - when people just become really disillusioned and it becomes the thing that breaks you - is that secondary trauma that happens when the organisation that you have... Given so much for and aligned yourself so much with, when they mishandle your concern. 

Luke Taylor: In the three years that it took me to finish up with the police… The time I was I first went off sick and kept trying to come back I had to tell my story, which when it was written down as a statement we're talking about a 50 page statement of all the trauma and what's led up to it.

I had to tell my story to 17 different 17 people. 

Kirsty: Why so many? 

Luke: 17 psychologists and psychiatrists because, that’s the system, to just get acknowledged and have somebody actually say, you know what? You genuinely have anxiety and depression and PTSD. [00:12:00] Yeah. I've since found out, I've done my research, it's harmful.

Kirsty: Having to retell your story over and over again. 

Luke: Because you have to tell the whole thing. It's not like my regular psych who I'd go to and we'd unpack it bit by bit and who knew my journey.. But to sit there and offload that story time and time again, and it actually makes that memory stronger.

And yet, and I came from an industry where in child protection we would interview the child in a beautifully set up studio and we could play with the kids and try and make it really accommodating. And we basically had one crack at it. To get that evidence. 

It was a joint system. So we had health, we had department of community, we had everybody involved in it. So it would limit the trauma. And yet, at the same side, they treat me like cattle or a show dog kept going to jump through these hoops. It was, it was horrible. 

Kirsty: Did you want to leave the police force at that time?

Luke Taylor: I saw myself as being a [00:13:00] commissioner. Look, from the moment I joined the police, I, you know, I might laugh about it now, but I absolutely love it. And I still have that passion for the job and everything it is and what it stands for. And, and I've come through the other side now. Where I can embrace that, and I'm even making contacts again, people I used to work with.

I had a hatred for it, an absolute hatred, and that was a protection thing, and it was what had happened to me. And yeah, I blamed the job, I blamed people in the job. Yeah, it, it was horrible. 

Kirsty: So when did you know? At what point did you go, whoa, this is now a problem? What did that sort of progression look like for you?

Luke Taylor: Very early on, when I was at Cabramatta, I was also the union delegate for our station, so I was often fighting for the rights of fellow officers and things like that. I remember one day just pulling over on the F4, and I was in tears, and I actually... Cried out in the car. [00:14:00] When is someone going to stand up for me, right?

I didn't know how to ask for help. I was helping others, which I suppose is what the police job is. And that stupid pride. You know, is that the pride of a, you know, a 23, 24 year old guy who, um, sees his whole career ahead of him. Yeah, and that manifested later in life too, like even in, in, in teaching.

I had some hard times in there, you know. For me, a bit of a workaholic. Push harder and harder, and for me, I had this big issue that if I could have that career taken away from me.. it could happen again, if it's things that are outside of my control. And that just sent me over the tipping edge.

Mental health is something you've got to keep working on, it's like going to the gym, if you stop... Your muscles disappear, or your fitness goes, you've got to keep working on it. Good times, bad times, when it's least expected, it can just jump up and grab you again.

Kirsty: Yeah. So what do you do? What [00:15:00] have been the big takeaways for you in terms of how you do protect your mental health now?

Luke Taylor: Look, I still keep in touch with a counsellor, psychologist, you know, make three or four appointments a year. Even when I'm feeling great, I'll just check in. It's so important. Um, what's, what's the end result? I don't know. Um, do we then struggle to get people doing those jobs? Um, because you go into it, you are aware.

And, and the longer you do become aware, and I know you become entrenched in a job, and there's obviously financial safety and things like that involved with it. But at the end of the day, you can make that decision. Saying, this is not for me and walk away and that's what's actually happening now because the level of training, anyone with a degree thinks, well, I don't need to put up with this.

I could perhaps go and do an undergrad for another six or 12 months. And I've got that police degree or I've got, you know, again, that teaching degree and they can easily transfer. They've got the choice. It doesn't, it doesn't actually help the situation. And again, for [00:16:00] those who are still in it, the mental health issues are still there and the problems and the causes are still going to be there.

Kirsty: Do we as a community need to do a better job at looking after our police officers? 

Luke Taylor: I think everyone in general. Yeah, we've, we've got to look after everyone. Like I said, it's, uh, I don't, I know that's my past, um, and I've got that inside knowledge with that, but I'm an advocate for, for everyone. Everyone's mental health.

And now I'm in business. I understand the stresses of running a business and the things like that. And I know it is getting more out there in the public sphere and, and what you're doing here is absolutely vital. This should be compulsory listening basically for everyone. And this is the sort of stuff that needs to be on your Netflix, on your tv. And this needs to be getting out there for every single person, and that's what a community, the community offers support and help. And we've, we've got to do that. Yeah. 

Kirsty: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, let's talk about, so you did unfortunately have to leave the police [00:17:00] and then became a teacher.

But you have also now founded a sort of experiential learning venture called Crime Story, which kind of marries the two. 

Luke: It does, yeah. 

Kirsty: Yeah, which is very cool. And also, and I'm very interested in the fact that as well, like you and Brenda were police officers together and then she became a teacher as well, and that you both work presumably in Crime Story.

Is there an element of like the family that works together, stays together? 

Luke: I hope so. 

Kirsty: How did that come about? Did that just sort of organically happen that you both sort of followed the same paths or? 

Luke Taylor: Yeah, well, when I first started teaching and it was the most uplifting thing I'd ever felt. I was creative and I didn't realize I had all of these ideas and creativity.

That in a traditional job, you can't think outside the square. And so I found this incredible freedom in teaching, awesome support. And so I'd come home each day and I'd say to Brenda, I said, Oh, this is what's happened. And she goes, you know what, I might come down and do a bit of volunteer work. She just fell [00:18:00] into it.

Colin: I must say that you talk to some of the students, including my kids, and nearly the first names that come up if you ask them, Who was your favourite teacher? It was you and... Brenda. Just because you were relatable, I think you were real. 

Luke: I wasn't afraid to talk about having a breakdown and, and having this stuff.

And I remember like almost from day one, I'd have kids hang back after recess and say, Oh man, I can't believe you said that I'm going through some, some stuff as well. Yeah. I just had to own it. And I now see the benefits of that. 

Kirsty: How did you build yourself back up? After the breakdown to the point where you could be people's favourite teacher effectively.

Luke Taylor: I had this family and had to get them through so I had to hold it together as much as I could for them. That probably just delayed a little bit the true depth of what I needed to go through to recover. But that was what gave me [00:19:00] focus. At the moment that Brenda and I actually got together, the job sort of was starting to be pushed into the background.

Then I realised, man, this is so much bigger. This is life, right? And so I was breaking away from that career identity. So that helped in that process. Plus your constant therapy and things like that. And then perhaps, you know, the biggest awakening obviously was finding God for me was the clincher in the whole deal.

I'd been to some pretty hairy jobs in the years leading up to that. There was a murder by some devil worshippers and things like that. And I just saw some stuff and I couldn't explain. And I needed to get deeper. When I was off sick, I said to Brenda one day, I said, Oh, there's that funny bookshop in town that just sells Bibles.

I said, do you reckon you could go and get me one? 

Kirsty: You couldn't even get it yourself. 

Luke Taylor: Oh no. I can't walk in there. 

Kirsty: Send the wife in.

Luke Taylor: And yeah, and that, and that led to that. So, that was the biggest thing that has got me to where I'm at today. 

Kirsty: So family and faith. [00:20:00] 

Luke: Family and faith.

Kirsty: Yeah. Amazing. So talk us through how you arrived at Crime Story.

What's the origin story there? 

Luke Taylor: So, from the time I started teaching, there was no English teaching position available, and so Jeff said, I'm going to throw you into, how about junior science? And I remember his words saying, it's just, just follow the process, it's just like a crime scene. All right. So, it started with Barbie in the bathtub.

I had to teach observations and inferences to I think year seven science and the differences between them. I thought I might set up a little bit of a crime scene. So I went back home. I went through Chelsea's things and found her one and only Barbie. And I filled it with a little bathtub with red food colouring and different things.

And it's had to put it together with all the different scientific things and what could have happened and kids just loved it. So I did a few different variations like, but everything I did was hands on. Years later, I got I've got the opportunity to train in, um, project based learning [00:21:00] and then I did my research into experiential learning and I was head of English up at Kempsey and the boss said, right, you can have a, have a run your own thing for a week.

This is project based learning week. You can run your own thing. So I had a number of kids come in from year seven to year 11. A couple of them were flat out illiterate. We're going to learn to write, and we're going to do it with a crime scene. And that won them over. And we would do things, I'd park my four wheel drive in the bush, I'd put some tape around it and said, right.

They've escaped from there. They've done a stick up at the bank. Where did they go? So we're running through the bush following natural paths, but we're writing as we go and recording. What do you see? What do you feel? What do you hear? It was hands on and they come up with some of the most incredible stories.

Yeah, and so we did that we made our own props. We would get bits of cardboard and we made gold bars for the bank robbery. We jumped out windows carrying gold bars. We did footprints in the sand and did plaster cast spraying and trying to match the shoe print [00:22:00] and this idea had been building and building and I would be trying this in class in every element and it got to a point saying if, if we go full on with this, we've got an idea and we had some great supporters and so we committed to it earlier this year, went full time with it.

Kirsty: Oh, great. Hearing you talk about like project based learning and experiential learning, I actually read, I think it was a blog post that you wrote where you called it play based learning. Yeah. And that really sort of struck me about what it is because we, we so accept and just take it for granted that like small children, like my kids are at preschool and it's all play based learning.

And we just accept that, yeah, that's how the kids learn best. When do we decide that that's no longer the way that we learn?

Luke Taylor: I know! And that's what that blog was about. The fact that they're researching for adults. Because we used to do simunition training. in the police, which is a play based thing as well. Right.

And kids do it. But the high school have missed out completely. Yeah. And that's some of the research that I'd love to head towards a PhD at some stage and, and do research into that because yeah, it's, it's just high [00:23:00] school. And you see the statistics about engagement, it drops away increasingly, the engagement factor as we progress further and becomes more prescriptive.

But just because we have an HSC and a curriculum doesn't mean that we can't be a little bit more engaging and involved with that. I know it takes time and we've got the benefit, we just rock up to a school, we've got everything ready to go, it's a shot of adrenaline for the school, for the teachers. Yeah.

I always look at the the kids who play soccer, you know, and how often they practice those drills and they do it and they're playing, but they're learning from doing that you put it into a game, something that's fun and enjoyable. Because you've got to get them through the door of your classroom to begin with, so make it fun and they will learn and problem solve as they go.

Colin: So that's what you do, you take your crime story to a school. 

Luke: Yeah, yes we go to every school, any school that wants us, we'll go there. We travel. 

Colin: How many have you done so far? 

Luke: Since March we've now done about [00:24:00] 20. Yeah. And next term we have only got one week. Left booking in for next time it's, it's going gangbusters and we're going as far as, as Finley on the border of Riverina, um, Dubbo, up the coast, Sydney, you name it.

Kirsty: It's not just schools though, is it? You all work with businesses and do almost, is it like a team building sort of? 

Luke Taylor: Yeah, so we're heading into the corporate structure and we'll do team building and communication. The one take home that we used to see in the police, I actually was only a trainee detective at the time, and

we're working on a murder and a very senior sergeant from Homicide was out helping with us. He said to me, Luke, what do you think? And I said, Oh, I've got nothing to offer. I'm only an A lister trainee. Yeah. He goes, I don't care. You're part of the team. You've got something to contribute. And it made me realize that we all have those different perspectives.

It doesn't matter how seemingly unvalued or junior you are. And so when we do this [00:25:00] in class, quiet kid in the corner of the room, but an incredible wealth of knowledge. You know, you get your class hotshots who do all the talk and think they know it all. And then you put this scenario in front of them and then you see the kid from the corner come out, crack solves everything and everyone's suddenly listening to them.

And in a business perspective, you'll often get levels of management who perhaps aren't quite in touch with the front of house workers and things like that and see how much they can contribute. And it teaches them to listen to each other and work as a team with your different strengths, put them in a crime solving situation and you make them listen to each other and work it out, they get this different appreciation of their colleagues. 

Kirsty: Thanks, Luke. 

Luke: Thank you very much. It's been awesome. 

Kirsty: Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for being prepared to be vulnerable about that. It's such an important topic. Probably have to book you for like a, some sort of book you in advance now for a team building exercise.

Luke Taylor: Get your people to contact my people. Yeah. 

Kirsty: Absolutely. [00:26:00] Beautiful. All right. Well, thanks very much for coming in. We will put all the links on the show notes, everything that we've talked about and we will catch you next time on Enabled. 

Luke Taylor: See ya. 

Colin: Bye.