Kirsty: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Enabled, the podcast where we talk about, normalise and celebrate disability and mental health.
What are we here for Colin?
Colin: We are here to listen to part two of our interview with Simone from the Complex Care Collaborative.
Kirsty: Yes, we are Simone. If you didn't hear last fortnight's episode, go back and check it out.
Really cool episode. We talk about stimming and masking and, you know, neurodivergent affirming practice. Just some really cool things.
We're talking about trauma informed therapy. Very interesting. So stick around.
Colin: I did have to look up some of those terms in the dictionary.
Kirsty: It's okay. It's all right.
Colin: It's all right. We all learn. It's a learning experience.
Kirsty: Everybody needs help sometimes and it takes a strong man to admit that, Colin, so good job.
Colin: Thanks, Kirsty. You've impacted me.
Kirsty: Oh.
Colin: Is that the [00:01:00] right word?
Kirsty: That sounds… medical.
Colin: Just go on. Just play the episode.
Kirsty: All right. Well, here we go. This is part two with Simone Fitzgerald. Let's check it out.
Kirsty: You talked about looking at therapy and your interactions with your client through a trauma informed lens. What does that mean?
Simone: So, trauma informed practice, it's like a blanket term for acknowledging that people have trauma in their lives. And that it is very relative. So, everyone has a different level of trauma.
For children, it may be school based trauma. They've been screamed at by a teacher, and are now on school refusal. Another one stubbed their toe. And is on school refusal. So it's being accepting and understanding that everyone has experienced a trauma and that it is relative to them. And that if we support all of our clients under a trauma informed lens, then we're open to the fact - and we don't have to get people to disclose.
We're not going to sit down and go, right, what traumatic experiences have you had in your entire life? [00:02:00] So that I'd know what triggers to avoid. Right. If we can approach every client and assume that they've had a trauma... We can just be open to the fact that we're recognising things like body language if we start mentioning a topic and then the demeanour changes.
It's shifting your attunement to recognise all those little things that people don't communicate verbally that might make them feel uncomfortable. And just bringing it back to safety. Because If we can establish safety with a child, and particularly a family - so with families that have got intergenerational trauma, or disconnected family, domestic violence, and feel like every time they go to a medical professional or an allied health professional that they're going to be pointed at with, this is all the things you have not done, they're going to disengage.
So, we need to build safety for everybody. Trauma informed lens really focuses on the element of safety being the first thing we focus [00:03:00] on. Yeah. And highlighting that to each individual that comes through our doors to make sure that we can get them engaged and get them to open up to us about what they want from therapy.
Yeah. Because then it's truly individually focused.
Kirsty: Yeah. If a person doesn't feel safe... in their interactions with the world, in any setting, are they going to be able to receive any kind of therapy? Are they going to be able to benefit from those situations if they're not feeling safe?
Simone: All is dependent on the person, but not to the extent that it could help them.
The more you can build safety, the more benefit someone is going to get out of any kind of therapy, whether it's OT, psychology, but also physio. If you have a woman who has maybe not disclosed it to anybody that she may have gone through domestic violence and then she's going to seek physio for an injury, but then she's working with a male physio and she hasn't been able to feel comfortable.
Getting physiotherapists to establish, do you feel more comfortable being with a male therapist [00:04:00] or a female therapist? Is there anything you would like us to know? And then leaving it open to the person to discuss that. Yep. You can access this and you are the driver of it. Yeah, and that way we can really center what we're doing and how we're working with you to your needs.
Yeah, but you're the driver of it so that people don't feel pressured like they have to be there.
Kirsty: I want to sort of dig into when you were giving those examples. Younger generations especially, and the world generally, sort of is becoming more in tune with the ways that our interactions with the world can maybe be some form of violence. And we're very aware of that, very conscious that there's this real sort of movement of people to advocate for themselves.
I think a lot of older generations in particular find that quite difficult. And so I would anticipate that some people listening might think, come on, you cannot validate school refusal for a kid who stubs their toe. I feel like we used to operate very much under this idea that stoicism is the highest value.
You know, if you've got a kid who looks to me to [00:05:00] be resilient, you've arrived, as opposed to a kid who stubs their toe and breaks down. I think a lot of people think that we, that we are creating a generation of victims. We're creating a generation of overly precious kind of individuals who cannot handle life anymore.
Yeah. What do you say to that?
Simone: I think, yeah, it's a previous generation. I feel like our generation is on that, like we're wedged in the middle of this shift. So we've got like my parents who have grown up with people and themselves saying, come on, pick yourself up, get over it. Right. And then we've got our little people and we're looking at our little people and going, I don't want to do that.
They've got feelings and they're valid and that's okay. So I think it's actually a really beneficial thing that we're educating and shifting into safety and an emotional identification focus because we're getting kids to be able to tune into, I have a feeling, I feel safe enough to communicate that with someone at [00:06:00] home, at school.
And if I can communicate that with someone, that person might be able to help me, or I might be able to help myself. Obviously there is that danger, that we push it too far, and then we do make children bubble wrapped. But we can do so much with empowering safety, empowering kids to have boundaries.
Boundaries is a big one. Kids are allowed to say no. Kids are allowed to have opinions. You might not like them. That's okay. Kids are allowed to have opinions. So just encouraging kids to be able to use their voice basically.
Kirsty: Which in and of itself really is the opposite of encouraging a generation of victims.
Because a victim is someone who is powerless to stop what is happening to them. Whereas if we raise children to use their voice, to know that I can say no to people, and I can say I feel uncomfortable here and I need to mix some things up so that I will feel safe and this is going to work for me.
That's the opposite of victimhood. That's agency. That's the ability to protect [00:07:00] yourself.
Simone: Yeah. And emotional regulation. Like, I was talking to you last week about your little girl needing to hold your hand on the soccer field. Yes. She's five. How incredible. Like, how much support, obviously, you have given her at home to educate her on her emotions, her needs, what she needs in that moment.
Yeah. And for her to go, if I hold Mum's hand, I'm going to be okay. I'm going to reset myself. I'm going to ground myself. Yes. That is huge.
Kirsty: To be able to vocalise, this is what my body needs.
Simone: My body needs this. I just need to hold your hand. Then I know I'll be okay. I know grown ups who can't do that.
Amazing. Like I wanted to cry when I heard that. Like it is incredible that we can now raise really emotionally in tune kids. It isn't that we're going to make them soft. We're going to empower them by giving them language around what their feelings are.
And if they're feeling like I can't do this, I can't do this. We [00:08:00] can say, I'm going to respect that. But if you're feeling ready to change that, give them the space to go, we don't just put a brick wall up. Okay, that's how we're feeling now. If that changes, I'm here to support you to go further. And I know if and when you're ready, we're going to work together because I know you're a strong person.
And I know that we've all got the tools to work together to do it because a lot of kids get really disappointed when they, they're like, I'm going to a soccer game and I'm really excited to be a part of it with my friends and then they get there and they get so overwhelmed. And they want to cry and then they go home and they're so disappointed in themselves.
They're worried that they'll never... They've let people down. So we can use this space, a trauma informed space and building safety by saying, maybe now's not the right time, but that doesn't mean never.
Kirsty: Yeah, totally. And so part of what your passion, I guess, is also in educating people about this approach to therapy.
And is that something that you offer, [00:09:00] that people can get in touch with you and say, Can you come and talk to my, to my business, to my school, to whatever, about how we can be trauma informed or neurodivergent affirming? Is that something that you do?
Simone: Yeah. So I've, earlier this year, I have, presented to a rural base of speech pathologists for Speech Pathology Australia on trauma informed practice and working under a trauma informed lens.
And last year I was given the opportunity to present to speech pathologists across the Hunter New England up at Tamworth. So I did a day there. I could do it for, it could be a week that I could talk about it. But it is something that I'm developing to be able to offer that training in house as well, so face to face. But I'm also building up to work in an online capacity for people that might want to do it in their own time.
So yeah, that is something that I'm starting to build up now to make that more accessible. But yes, I do offer that support to a wide range, so teachers, and I'm looking at [00:10:00] doing something similar in workplaces. Working with business owners on how they can do tiny little things. to make a workplace more accessible and to understand their staff.
What you might say is, oh, historically that would have been something that I wouldn't hire a person for, looking at their strengths, and making sure that our young people in the community can stay local, can feel like they've got access regardless of their neurotype, or regardless of their trauma or their anxiety. Because it's only little changes that really have to happen, so, yeah, that's something that I'm working on.
Moving towards in my space and I really love it.
Kirsty: So if people are interested in doing that, we'll put a link into your practices. Is that the best way to get in contact with you to just call CCC?
Simone: Yes. Call CCC or email the admin email, not me. Cause I'm not the best at email sometimes. ADHD. Um.
Colin: Is it more prevalent nowadays, are there more cases of autism or ADHD than it was, say, when I was a [00:11:00] kid?
Simone: That comes up a lot. It comes up a lot from teachers, it comes up a lot from parents as well. And the answer is mixed. I think, yes, there are more children being diagnosed. However, I think for a lot of people it was there, but social norms... 30, 40 years ago in terms of how we work, how we are disciplined at school, how we're disciplined in society.
I think it was very, very different and there wasn't a lot of flexibility. It was a very cultural kind of thing. So I think it's always been there, but I think it is becoming more prevalent. But then also genetics is a big part of autism and ADHD. So I think it is becoming more prevalent because there is a genetic component.
So we're really passing it down a lot more. You're more likely to have... Autistic traits, if you have a parent or an uncle that has been diagnosed with autism. So, yes, there's that element as well. So I think it's a mix of environmental and [00:12:00] genetic, and then a change in society in general. Where we're being more open to the...
idea of autism and ADHD and different neurotypes.
Kirsty: I think also the stigma associated with it is reducing, I mean I remember being tested for ADHD as a child and being so like riddled with worry that I would get diagnosed with it because at that time it was this thing that the naughty kids had. It was a really bad thing and I, I really did not want it.
I saw it as this incredibly negative thing and I was so stressed that I might be diagnosed with it. Whereas I think these days it's more about, I would like to be informed about how my brain works. I would like to be informed about how I can harness my strengths here and know myself better. So I think, you know, there's less reluctance from people to seek that diagnosis if they're starting to question whether that might be going on.
And I think people are just more open about it. You know, I'm sure back in the day someone got diagnosed with something and it was like a family secret.
Colin: Yeah, don't talk about it.
Simone: Yeah. Absolutely. And we still do [00:13:00] have family members and families that have chosen not to disclose it to schools and have made sure that we only communicate to specific people because they would like to keep that to themselves.
And we can educate till the cows come home and say, yeah, but such a great thing being an autistic person. Like, look at all the things that they can do and look at all these famous people that have been entrepreneurs that have been neurodiverse. Yes. But we can't force people to change that. All we can do is empower people through education when they're ready.
But yeah, we still do find a mix of stigma attached. So we'll have kids come in and they've just been referred because they're struggling at the moment with emotions. And then they'll sit down with the psychology team and the psychologist might go, there might be something else there that can help explain it.
And then we'll have parents that will say, but... What's the benefit of a label? It's just a couple of letters.
Kirsty: They want to avoid it.
Simone: Yeah. And I'm really lucky [00:14:00] in the fact that I am autistic and ADHD an AuDHDer, and that I have a team of neurodiverse people on my staff that really embrace it. But we're all really open.
Whenever a parent will come in and that's the first thing that kind of comes up. We will explain that I'm an autistic person, and I'm really grateful that I have a very open neurodiverse team and that I'm very open about my experience to try and break it. Because, yeah, it's not just about getting some letters on a piece of paper.
And it's about helping young people to understand why friendships might be different for them. Why don't, like, I'm trying really hard to be friends with this person because I've known them my whole life, but we don't get along. It doesn't mean you have to hate the person. You just don't have that click together, and that's okay.
Kirsty: Yeah, there's nothing wrong with you, there's nothing wrong with them. No.
Simone: Yeah. That's what it's about. It's about empowering parents and... young people [00:15:00] that a diagnosis doesn't need to be a bad thing. It can be an empowering thing to help you understand yourself.
Colin: This is a big word, but your vision, what do you see? What do you want it to be?
Simone: My vision is that I reduce the stigma of mental health and neurodiversity within the community as a whole. That people can be comfortable with seeking support for mental health and embracing their neurodiversity and neurodiversity within their family. We can encourage the next generation to feel empowered in their ability to connect with their emotions. To understand themselves. And hopefully as we move into newer generations that this whole space changes, that it's not so clinical and it's easier to access for people.
Kirsty: Simone, that's been just really fantastic. We've really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you [00:16:00] so much for coming in.
Simone: Thank you for having me.
It's been a very nice opportunity to do it.
Colin: Yes. I would really encourage people to have a look at your website when it's done and get in touch. If they have questions about their family and kids or whoever.
Simone: We're open that if it's something that you're exploring but you're not quite sure if you're ready or your child is ready to jump into, come and visit us.
Come and see our clinic. It's this beautiful old cottage.
Kirsty: It’s gorgeous. I want to live there.
Simone: Oh yeah. It really is. We're building gardens as our next step.
Kirsty: I love the approach that you guys take with it. And I just think the benefit of that lived experience that you and your team have, it's invaluable. You just cannot put, for the neurodiverse people who come to you, so incredible to be able to have that validation of the lived experience.
But again, impacting for families to go - this is not a negative thing for my child. Look at these people, these professional people succeeding. I just think it's such a powerful impact and [00:17:00] legacy that you guys are having and can have.
Simone: Like I couldn't have asked for a better group of people. It feels like going to work is just going to my second family.
Kirsty: Simone, thanks for coming in. Thanks for listening, everybody. And we'll catch you next time on Enabled.
Colin: See you later.