Kirsty: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome everyone back to Enabled, the podcast where we talk about, normalise and celebrate disability and mental health. And we're here on a Sunday, which is very unusual for us. Very few things will get Colin out of his Stormtrooper PJs on the weekends.
Colin: Do you have to keep bringing that up?
Kirsty: Listen, I'm not the one who put it out there into the universe. I'm just helping it sort of continue along. What are you writing?
Colin: I'm writing all these things down because it's going to come back on you one day.
Kirsty: Listen, we're not here to talk about me. The point is, we have someone in the studio with us today who we are excited enough about that we are here on a Sunday.
So welcome Vanessa Jennings to the podcast.
Vanessa: Thank you so much for having me. It's very exciting to be here.
Kirsty: Yeah, well you're taking time out of a super busy schedule as well, so thank you for being here. Can you tell us what you're up to?
Vanessa: So I am from Wagga Wagga. I work for the Catholic diocese as their RTO [00:01:00] manager, so when young people do a national qualification through their high school in year 11 and 12, it's linked to a national curriculum and I manage that curriculum across the Riverina.
So I'm actually here in Port Macquarie this week working with the Diocese of Lismore.
Colin: Of course, it comes up that you probably have paddled out into the five o'clock wave at Wagga.
Vanessa: Ah, the five o'clock wave.
Colin: See, this is a legitimate.
Kirsty: Come on. All right. Guys, for everybody listening, we've had a couple of people on the show now who have some sort of connection to Wagga Wagga.
I lived there at one point, and people are talking to me about the five o'clock wave, which I have no recollection of, I was a child. And I feel like I'm being punked in some sort of way that I'm not quite catching on to.
Colin: There's videos on YouTube.
Kirsty: Vanessa, be real with me, level with me.
Vanessa: I can neither confirm nor deny the five o'clock wave.
Kirsty: All right. So it's a drop bear thing, effectively.
Colin: Drop bears are real, I just saw the movie.
Vanessa: You'll just have to come and do [00:02:00] a podcast in Wagga, you know, we'll, we'll go and sit on the river.
Colin: You can paddle out, you can, I've got a wetsuit and a board, you can put it on, paddle out.
Kirsty: I have a deeply, deeply held aversion to water.
Colin: There's no sharks in the Murrumbidgee.
Vanessa: No, it's great.
Kirsty: Uh huh, yep, no sharks, lots of drop bears and a five o'clock wave.
Vanessa: We'll do the float. Have you ever heard of the float? We can do the float. So we drop you at one beach in Wagga and you float down the river to Wagga Beach, which is, it was in the top 10 beaches of 2020.
Colin: I must say we used to go there very late at night sometimes, which is probably not a clever thing do, but we
Kirsty: What were you doing there late at night, Colin?
Colin: Cooling off. After going bush dancing.
Vanessa: It's very hot. Very hot in Wagga. Yeah, it is.
Kirsty: Right. Uhhuh. Interesting.
Cool... Thanks guys.
Vanessa: No, I look forward to you coming to Wagga Wagga.
Kirsty: Yes. Well, for research purposes. Absolutely. I'd love that. Um, all right, well, okay, so. Do you like what you do? Do you enjoy your work?
Vanessa: I do enjoy what I do. It's really challenging. What I enjoy about it is [00:03:00] I know that when young people do our training, it's often a bright spark moment.
It's like, Oh my gosh, I can do this. I'm good at this. So for instance, they might have had a negative learning experience. And once we put them into a space where they're actually using the skills and the things that they're learning from their trainers, it's often light bulb moments. It's these kids going, I can do this.
I'm actually good at this and what I love is that they then end up not only with the skills to do it but a piece of paper to back them up.
Colin: I think that's the big thing that they're practical learning experiences, completely different to academic, mainstream, whatever you want to call it, education.
Vanessa: From a personal perspective, what I love about vocational education is it doesn't matter what your ability is, if you can do it and you can prove it multiple times, you get a certificate.
So for me, For somebody who has a disability, yes, I'm not going to go and do the chainsaw course, but you know, I could demonstrate that I know [00:04:00] leadership, I know management skills. So therefore vocational education wrapped around me and my disability or my abilities, and I got a certificate. So it's really, I love that vocational education wraps around a person, no matter their ability.
Colin: You come across as very passionate about this.
Kirsty: Which I love. I love hearing people talk about their passion.
Colin: Where, where do you think that passion comes from?
Vanessa: I love watching other people succeed. In my area I actually engage with young people all the time. I go into my schools and talk to them and I've changed the dialect.
I've changed, you know, what do you want to do when you get older? I don't ask young people that anymore. I'm like, what do you want to know more about? And the conversation changes. Really rapidly. They're like, well, I want to know about this. I need to know more about that.
And I was like, okay, well now we're talking.
Kirsty: So you mentioned Vanessa, that you do have a disability and we are, we're a podcast about disability and mental health. And we've actually got you on to speak about both today. But we'll start in terms of, can you just tell [00:05:00] us what your disability is and maybe explain that for anyone listening who doesn't really understand what that means.
Vanessa: Yeah, sure. So I was diagnosed with Spina Bifida at a very young age. I would have been about three or four. But as a young child, I went to Royal Far West in Manly and had a lot of specialist services there. But as I moved into late primary school and early high school, the medical side of things kind of dropped away for me because it was not more about my disability, it was more about my ability.
I remember having a chat to you on the phone, um, the first time, and you said, what kind of spina bifida do you have? And it actually got me thinking, because I've never once Googled spina bifida. I've never really looked into the diagnosis, I've never really investigated any of my symptoms, or bits and pieces, or anything like that.
I've just kind of gone. On with life.
Kirsty: Which I'm, I'm so glad you brought that up, because I'm, I've been thinking about [00:06:00] that a lot since I chat, it's, it really surprised me.
Vanessa: And I still have not googled it, I'll be really honest.
Kirsty: No, good for you.
Vanessa: It's, it's not something that I consciously think about.
It's not something that I think, oh gee, I really need to know more about that. It's more that I've just gotten on to life with my ability, not necessarily held back by my disability. I was raised with two brothers and my brothers were highly active. So AFL on Saturdays, NRL on Sundays, cricket through the week.
So one of the things that I absolutely love about my family is that I just got tagged along, you know, dragged along, come on, get in the car, we've got to go. My weekends were spent on the side of a sporting field with a book in my hand. And my brothers are just fantastic in that they never once focused on my disability, it was more about what I could do rather than what I couldn't do.
And what I couldn't do, they just did for me anyway. So yeah, you really, you, you had me [00:07:00] pondering about how important is it to understand your disability? I don't know. For me, personally, I don't need to know. I know what I can do and I know what I can't do. And if I can't do it, I have a red hot crack at it before I say I can't do it.
But I always just kind of manage the situation, uh, without... Even really thinking about it.
Kirsty: I guess the reason that it was so surprising to me is that it's completely the opposite of how my brain works. And I tend to, you know, my brain is constantly racing and thinking of all these different scenarios and what about this and what about that and needing to sort of exhaustively know things.
But, I mean, it does get to a point, I suppose, for me especially, where it becomes almost a personal zero sum game. Where any of the benefits that you get from being prepared or having thought through all these scenarios, well, you're also losing out on anxiety and sleepless nights and, you know, even the time it takes you to collect that knowledge that you could be out doing things.
So, you know, it's [00:08:00] counterintuitive to me, but I actually found it like really challenging in a good way to say, well, actually there's a lot of wisdom in just getting on with it, accepting every part of who you are and not needing to know everything that there is to know. Just live your life. Yeah.
Vanessa: To date, it has served me well.
So, I just believe in making the most of every opportunity. So, yeah, I've never, I've never needed to know the ins and outs, roundabouts of it. I'm sure one day I might, but not today. Yeah. But it was very interesting when you, when you threw that question at me, I'm like.
Kirsty: That stuck with me as well, so it's funny that that was sort of a mutually like, you know, lightbulb moment for both of us.
So in terms of when we were talking, you also talked about, um, so you use crutches to mobilise, is that right?
Vanessa: Yes, I do. So yes, I have walking aids to mobilise. For instance, I can move around my home quite easily and work and I drive a car normally and things like that. This year's probably been a little bit more of a [00:09:00] challenge.
I need to have a knee reconstruction because I have a broken patella. I had a car crash when I was really young and broke my kneecap and it's starting to, it's, it's funny because I think as people with disabilities, we tend to just make do and keep going. And then as our bodies change, as we get older, I'm 44, our bodies change and we then go, Oh, well, I can't quite do that the same way anymore.
So. Uh, this year's been a bit of an interesting year for me because I purchased a scooter. So that was a bit, how-you-going at first, because I was getting to the point because my knee was playing up so bad, it would dislocate constantly. I was getting to the point where I was starting to miss out on things and that did not sit well with me, but I also purchased an electric wheelchair.
Wow. So that was really hard. I [00:10:00] had to actually do some emotional unpacking. And mental health unpacking with that particular item.
Kirsty: Why? Why did you find it hard, do you think?
Vanessa: Because I'm young. I'm 44. I don't need a wheelchair yet! You know, I, I was worried that people wouldn't be able to look at me the same.
It took me, and I, you know, things like that don't necessarily have to be rational. You know, anxiety is not a rational emotion. And in my brain, I had this. Oh my God, you know, my peers, my work colleagues, if I turn up to this, you know, NSW statewide meeting in a wheelchair, are they, are they going to think that I'm, I'm not professional anymore?
Will they think down on me? I know that that's not rational. And that's certainly not what happened. But it's how I felt. So I had to unpack that, you know, Oh God, I'm 44 and I need a chair. I ended up [00:11:00] having to change the dialogue on that. I'm 44 with a chair that then enables me to get out there. And it's been really interesting.
I, I cried a lot because it is about that - Oh my God, this is a life changing thing. This is another step in my journey that I don't want to take, I don't want to go there. I don't want to, to need a chair. But it's been a really good experience. Thankfully for my daughters, I have two daughters, uh, Jade and Emily, they're 20 and 18, um, huge advocates for me, which is great.
And they really got on board and helped me unpack that. They're like, but mum, with this chair, you'll be able to do this. Yeah, we can go here. We can do this and it will be so much easier and you won't miss out. So I had to unpack that. That was a very hard reality as a very strong, independent woman needing to move into [00:12:00] something that I think in previous years has been seen as
a confinement. Being in a chair is a confinement. It's, you know, it's one step taking your independence away. And I had to change how it floated in my head, that actually, no, it's not taking any of my independence away. It's value adding to your life. So it was a really emotionally hard period to accept it. The professional side of me was concerned.
The personal side of me was freaking out. But I just knew if I didn't do something, I wouldn't be able to continue the travel and I travel all the time. So I wanted to make this a positive experience. So I used some NDIS funding, which is really lovely. Um, put a case forward and I got a scooter and a chair, and it's been amazing.
The only thing I can say to this is, is sometimes, yeah, you do need to unpack the emotional part that sits in it, [00:13:00] but the, the advantages are enormous.
Kirsty: Yeah, that's incredible. Cause you do hear people who are wheelchair users talk about. Um, and it's almost what you were referring to earlier with how you speak the dialect that you use to speak to your vocational students because historically we've used phrases like confined to a wheelchair or wheelchair bound, you know, so my understanding is that the correct terminology is wheelchair user because for wheelchair users, a wheelchair is a source of liberation.
Vanessa: Most definitely. And for me, it started because we went to dinner one night for work, and I had to walk an entire length of a pier. And I was exhausted by the end of it, a sore knee to boot. And I just thought, I can't keep doing this. And I'm tired of missing out.
I nearly didn't go to the dinner, all because it was at the end of a pier. So for me, I made that choice. to explore the chair and to embrace it and change the narrative in my own head. And it's been a [00:14:00] really great experience. There was one moment in there, just as a woman. I was also worried that it might take away my femininity.
And, and I know this might sound silly, but you know, people being attracted to me. I was seeing somebody at the time and I said, I'm really worried that, you know, you won't want to be with someone that's in a chair. And he was really lovely. You know, that helped, but it did. I was quite worried that it would take away from, you know, my attractiveness. And as a woman, you can't help but think like that.
Kirsty: Oh, totally. And it's such a huge.. we had the brilliant Jerusha Mather, who is just a huge disability advocate. She's based in Melbourne. We did an interview with her last week.
And we talked about dating and disability and, you know, just the huge need for that, there to be more promotion of - having that be an inclusive space. And so she actually has a petition on change. org where she's [00:15:00] calling on online dating platforms to, for example, use people with disability in your advertising, you know, have educational material for all of the users to understand that people with disability have exactly the same wants and needs and desires, and are just as valuable in relationships. And to normalise that idea of dating people with disability, like, why the heck, why, why do people exclude people with disability? It's ridiculous.
Vanessa: I know, it's a, it's a very crazy space. Um, and I, I'm definitely going to sign that petition.
Because I think that's fantastic.
Kirsty: Absolutely. Well, we'll link to it. We'll link to the episode that we did with Jerusha and we'll also link to that article.
There's this great new show on SBS called Latecomers, have you seen that?
Vanessa: Ah, no I haven't.
Kirsty: It's really good. So it's, it's written by Angus Thompson and Emma Myers, who both have cerebral palsy, and it stars Angus Thompson and Hannah Diviney.
And she's another big disability advocate, she also has cerebral palsy. It [00:16:00] really sort of, um, unflinchingly explores their navigating dating and relationships and sex, and they're saying that it has the first sex scene featuring a disabled character on Australian screens. It's kind of groundbreaking. But also normalising the idea of like.. this is a spoiler alert…
If you haven't watched Latecomers, tune out now. At the end, Hannah Diviney's character, who has cerebral palsy, and she's a wheelchair user, and she ends up with this smoking hot, able bodied character. Yeah, and it's great because it's just normalising. Why in the world wouldn't you, you know? Why not?
Vanessa: Yes. Yeah.
I think that's fantastic and I'll watch that for sure. You know, because we still have the, you know, the normal needs of everybody. To be loved. To be valued. To be appreciated. To have someone to love. To value, to appreciate. So, yeah, I think that's a really interesting space and goad them for doing it, I say.
That's awesome.
Kirsty: Yeah, hopefully the start of, yeah, really normalising that. [00:17:00] Because everybody is just missing out if we just rule people out based on abilities. What a shame.
All right, well, so you obviously, you grew up in this really lovely, very nurturing, very sort of positive and enabling environment, which is wonderful.
And then you got married, how old were you when you got married?
Vanessa: I was very young. So I met my husband, Mark, when I was 19. I met him at the pub one night. A really good friend of mine said, Oh, you need to meet my friend Jenno. He's the only person I know that's into music as much as you. So she brought over this fellow, he had long hair and a nose ring and an eyebrow ring and all these earrings.
And we just started talking about music. We just connected on a, on a really lovely level. I married Mark when I was 22, we had our first child at 23, I was 23, he was 26. And then we had our second [00:18:00] daughter when I was 26. So very young. But the minute I met Mark, I knew he was special and I knew that I would spend the rest of my life with him.
I didn't realise at the time that he would spend the rest of his life with me and that I would have to move on without him. He passed away in 2017 very unexpectedly when my girls were 12 and 14. So that's been really, really difficult because he was awesome. Many people just adored Mark and he... He was just one of the most amazing humans I've ever met.
We were married 19 years when he passed away. So I'd been with Mark for half of my life. So really, really special man and I feel very blessed to have been loved so unconditionally by him.
Kirsty: We did want to explore a little bit that whole mental health journey of grief. So are you able to talk about how Mark [00:19:00] died?
Vanessa: Sure. I, I'm actually very proud about.. this is going to come off really weird, but I'm really proud of how Mark passed away. My husband was very adamant that he did not want to have his death impact somebody traumatically. So, Mark had had an episode at work about five weeks prior to him passing away. He passed out at work and, um, he had to be revived on a work site.
Kirsty: Oh, as in like CPR, so he...
Vanessa: As in CPR. So, he was working in town, thank gosh, he was working, was right near the exit gate and they were just locking up and he just collapsed on the ground, just collapsed. So, it's quite ironic in that the team that were at the work site had recently done their senior first aid through my college.
My trainers had taught them. [00:20:00] And I was in the car on my way home and I got a phone call from the lady in the office where Mark had passed, passed out. And she rang me. She goes, Oh, Vanessa, it's Judy. I, I need you to go to the hospital. They'd rushed him, they'd revived him and rushed him to the hospital and he underwent a whole heap of tests and…
They couldn't find anything. So they'd done, for instance, there's a tablet that you can put under your tongue and then they can test your blood to see if you had, like you had a heart attack. So Mark went through a whole fleet of different tests to try and figure out what had actually happened to him.
And we couldn't get any conclusive results, nothing came back, they just, they couldn't explain it. And even on the Tuesday prior to him passing away, um, my dad had actually taken him to Wagga and he had a full, uh, MRI head to toe. And that, that [00:21:00] still came with nothing. So on the Tuesday morning that Mark passed away, I remember laying in bed, the alarm went off, he went up, he got up.
Up and he goes, I'm going to go to the gym. And I said, well, just be careful. He'd had a couple of weeks off while they were doing all of these tests and he'd just returned to work. Yeah, don’t go too hard. And he's like, oh no, no worries. Anyway, so he left and he took my car and I got up, had a shower, got the girls ready, Jade, my eldest daughter missed the bus, so she was still at home with me. And Mark had actually had the day off. So he would go on to the gym and was going to come home and he was getting ready to go on a camping trip with a really good friend. They did an annual June long weekend camping trip. So there was, you know, all these homebrew cause he was right into making his own beer, you know, all over the back, the kitchen table.
So he was prepping to go, um, on his annual pilgrimage with his best mate. So Emily, my youngest wasn't feeling very [00:22:00] well that day. So she said, I'm going to stay home with daddy today. And I said, Oh, okay, no worries. Easy done. And I'm standing at the front door going, God, where are you Mark? Cause he had my car.
And I remember seeing the silver car come down the street and park in the front of our house and, um, It was a very good friend of mine, Justin, who is a local detective in our town and he walked up and he's like, Can I have a talk to you, Vanessa? And I said, Oh. Yes. He goes I need to come in. So he came in and he said look I'm really sorry to tell you this but Mark passed away at the gym this morning. And it just it was so surreal. I'm like, really? And he's like, Vanessa, I really, I need you to sit down. I'm standing there and I could, poor Justin. I'm sure he was going, Oh my gosh, she’s going to fall over and I'm going to have to pick her up. Um, so I sat down and he's like, yeah, Mark was working out this morning at the gym.
And, um, [00:23:00] he. He sat down and put his hand to his neck. He must have felt a bit funny. Um, and then he just fell forward and he passed away straight away. So we, we haven't really had a conclusion, even six years down the track as to why that happened. I spoke to the coroner and she said, Vanessa, look, we did all these tests and we actually couldn't find anything.
His heart was beautiful. It was perfect. Um, it was healthy. There was actually nothing wrong. He was a, he was a very fit man, bit big. Like he had, he was quite a big man. He had a belly and, but that's okay. You know, he loved to drink, so they actually couldn't diagnose why.
Kirsty: So how does that, how does that impact you?
I mean, does that make it harder? Does it?
Vanessa: Yes and no, because Mark and I had a philosophy in life that you only get so many heartbeats. So the girls and I moved forward knowing that he [00:24:00] just used up all his heartbeats. He lived large. We had a very fast paced kind of life. We, you know, we did lots of things as a family.
So Jade, Emily and I moved. with this that he just used up all his heartbeats. He crammed his entire life into 42 years.