#7 Dawn Bayly (Pt 2 of 2): To homeschool, or not to homeschool?

In Part Two of our chat with Dawn Bayly, we talk education, homeschooling, and flexible learning. 

Dawn was a teacher for over 20 years, and is a Mum to seven children, including two children on the autism spectrum. 

In this episode Dawn talks us through why she pulled her children out of mainstream schooling after COVID lockdowns, and left her job as an employed teacher to homeschool her children. We also talk about when and how some of her children returned to mainstream school, and why homeschooling made that possible. 

Learn about flexible learning arrangements, how to start homeschooling, and how to advocate for autistic children in mainstream schooling. 

Links:

Homeschooling registration: https://educationstandards.nsw.edu.au/wps/portal/nesa/regulation/home-schooling/home-schooling-registration

Mini Heroes: https://www.andrewlord.com.au/education-1

Transcripts available for each episode on the website: https://enabled.buzzsprout.com

Let us know what you think!

Get in touch with us through Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/EnabledPodcast/


Or email us on:
podcast@advocators.com.au

This episode is brought to you by Ability Advocators:
https://www.advocators.com.au/
(02)65 824 946

Transcript

Colin: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Enabled, the podcast where we talk about, normalise and celebrate disability and mental health. We are back for part two of our interview with Dawn Bayly. We hope you enjoyed our first episode. If you haven't listened to it yet, go back and check it out. Some really great parenting advice in there from Dawn.

Today, we are diving into education. So thanks for joining us and let's get into it. 

Kirsty: Let's talk about autism for a minute. So you've got two kids with autism. When were they diagnosed? And I assume both of them have NDIS packages from the way you were talking? 

Dawn: I only have one with an NDIS package with autism.

Because the interesting thing, it is a spectrum and remember NDIS is about not just diagnosis, but need. 

Kirsty: And your function, your functional capacity.

Dawn: And your function and capacity, exactly. So I only have one that actually needs NDIS for them to be able to reach their [00:01:00] goals and capacity. And the other child who had, did receive OT and therapy has become an adult and is self-sufficient in a sense and has learnt strategies to be, to be an adult. 

Kirsty: That's the goal. 

Dawn: One of the children, they, they said, well they need one on one with an educator. NDIS can't pay for one on one with an educator. Gosh, yeah. Schools do have the NCCD, where they are allocating time.

So that's like, so NCCD is the national blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 

Kirsty: Fill in the blanks, yes. Okay. I'm glad I'm not the only one who's like, what does this acronym stand for?

Dawn: Yeah, so all the teachers out there will be like, oh, here we go. Um, so you've got NDIS. Which is, um, uh, The 

Kirsty: National Disability Insurance Scheme. You got it.

Dawn: That’s right. Yep. So the NCCD is pretty much how those people are being supported in the educational system. 

Kirsty: Yeah, right. And do they work together or is it an independent thing?

Dawn: So they work independently with funding and the funding cannot cross over. [00:02:00] But diagnosis papers and information crosses over.

Colin: Seeing we are actually talking about school system now, being a teacher and a parent… How does having a child come into your class that has autism -  How does that affect you as a teacher? What's the overall effect on the class and what assistance can the school provide for that student?

Dawn: Yes. So I've been a teacher for over 20 years. 

Kirsty: You've seen both sides of the coin. Teacher and the parent.

Dawn: So I've really had a beautiful experience where I was at a great school that did seek out professional development and I really appreciate that and I do want to acknowledge that I believe that schools do seek out to make sure their teachers are informed. It is also really challenging to keep up to date. 

I'll start with the mummy hat. So I'm a mummy, [00:03:00] and I would see my son go to school, and he started at kindy, and we had an introduction with the kindy teacher. We had his diagnosis, we had recommendations, he had early intervention. And then we talk about what he needs, and the teacher talks about what she can provide.

And also understanding that there's going to be adjustment, and perhaps... So many children on the spectrum, they take a little bit longer to build habits. We sort of say we have the three week gap, take a bit longer, but once they've got it, they've got it. So, a quirky one was if one of my children, every time they would see me at school, they'd be lining and walking off to the library and this child would see me and then he would lay on the ground.

Just lay on the ground. And then another week goes past and I see them walking, because I'm teaching at the school in another class, so they're seeing me around the school. And this child would see me and then... flattened on the ground again. Anyway, it went on and then the teacher was getting frustrated, rightly so.

It is very distracting. This child's [00:04:00] trying to get somewhere. This kid's like, have they fainted? 

Kirsty: Just hitting the ground. Do you guys have nerf guns a lot at home? 

Dawn: Well, it was quite sweet in the end. So I see teachers being very patient and he's flopped down on the ground again and I go over and I say, um, what are you doing darling?

And he's like, Oh, I'm falling in love with you. 

Kirsty: Oh my gosh.

Dawn: So beautiful. Once again though, how much that logical, direct thinking... So he had learnt the concept in the first couple of weeks, they'd read a book about falling in love with something. And he has captured this concept and it's so inspirational that he wants to use it on the person he's falling in love with.

And every time he sees that person. He doesn't notice what his peers are doing. He doesn't notice what the adult is doing. He just sees the person he loves and he's going to fall in love with that person. He's maybe not even noticing -  I think one time he [00:05:00] scraped his elbow, not even noticing his pain. This is a child on the spectrum, grabbing hold of a concept.

Pretty awesome actually, because it's a concept outside himself. So it's actually a sign that he is actually reading outside himself. He's trying to read the space. He's recognising me from a distance. These are all good things. But in that context, school could have been very much interpreted as distracting.

Uh, annoying, time taking. So then I had to go, thank you for falling in love with me. I love you too. We're going to practice falling in love at home. Then there was a lot of games, just flopping on the lounge. Can I say, after work, flopping on the lounge. Totally great for me. 

Kirsty: Best game ever. 

Dawn: So I see from a mummy point of view, How much my child is being a part of that world, but then maybe not getting that world. You know? And then of course, there was a bit of teasing about that. Other kids not understanding. Oh, you're a bit of a mummy's boy. Yes, well he's in kindy, he's meant to be a mummy's boy.

[00:06:00] 

Kirsty: Let's not penalise that. 

Dawn: But that understanding things so directly, and then wanting to be obedient actually created problems later where I would get phone calls and go, well, this child was told we'll be your friend if you go and kick that person and they'll be like, okay, and they go and kick that person and they're not seeing, even though they know the rules, they're not seeing all those layers.

So as from a mum point of view, I want to go in and advocate for my child. Then you've got the other side. I'm a teacher in another class and I'm having children with autism come into my room at different levels. Of course we want inclusion. My first goal, now that I've learnt, how does this person read me as a teacher?

Do they need to sit somewhere specifically? And do I need to do it, especially when you've got children on the spectrum in high school… No one wants to sit up the front and be in trouble. So I moved my classroom around and actually, [00:07:00] I think actually Colin you might have remembered coming to my classroom, it was more like a conference table.

You could see everyone's faces. 

Colin: It's more community, it's more.

Dawn: Everyone can see, you've got no one making faces, sounds or symbolism behind you. So there's a lot more inclusion happening there. So as a teacher, I was really big on that. I taught drama, so I understood the power of lots of facials. I had lots of pictures of faces.

And you don't assume that someone who's not on the spectrum actually can read faces. A lot of children in our generation, because of the screen time. 

Kirsty: Really?

Dawn: Oh my goodness, we actually have a bit of a joke. Drama teachers have a joke. Oh, this generation's bad, mad, glad, bad, sad. That's it. That's the four emotions.

They're mad, glad, bad, or sad. And you have to say to children, well, are you mad or are you overwhelmed, frustrated, then angry, then mad? Some children just go straight to mad. So that learning to read faces and read your emotions and [00:08:00] situational drama, which happens a lot in improv games. I love game focused learning.

So that was helping children on the spectrum and helping all children be communicative. And the curriculum does have that leeway to validate that type of game focused learning. You can have a variety of assessments. The challenge you've got is that teachers have to fill in all the forms. And it's very time consuming.

It's not that teachers aren't amazing with large numbers. Most teachers can handle 40 students. But as the numbers of children with needs are increasing across Australia in classrooms… If a teacher needs to have a heap of children doing a test for an hour, but then you need to interview each child for one hour, your assessment time has gone from one hour, to one hour for half the class, and then let's say you've got another 10 students, so that's now another 10 hours of assessment time.

And every child deserves that. But how do [00:09:00] the teachers implement that and capture that? 

Kirsty: I mean, well it sounds impossible. 

Dawn: So then you've got to think outside the square, and teachers do. I used to get students to record questions on a mobile and send it to me. 

Kirsty: Oh great. 

Dawn: Okay, and sometimes you do group discussions, and I think teachers are trying to capture that learning, and try and make it strategic and also realise that it's actually good for all students. 

Kirsty: So you, you've had that traditional schooling model. But then, you ultimately decided to pull your kids out of school and to homeschool. Can you walk us through how and why you arrived at that decision? 

Dawn: Yeah, so right now, as we, as we're speaking on today's date, I actually have four children homeschooling, and I have two who go to school.

Because I really believe in, you find your journey for learning. I'm not anti-school. And I have loved, though, the journey of homeschooling. I have really seen the benefits of it. With COVID, there was a time that children were staying at home, and it highlighted just the different ways some of our children were interacting with school routine and their learning habits. And we reflect on, well, what's best for my children. 

I was really impressed at my school at the time. They were doing a lot of online learning. Some of my children were excelling under that. They really enjoyed. They felt they got them done quickly and then they felt they had more free time at the end of the day. So one of my children thrived. They were like, Oh, I love this type of learning. So that was my first stretch. Okay, this person could just learn from their bedroom and then play outside, which was lovely. And then I actually also noticed another one of my children who really struggled at school was medicated to be able to stay calm and cope with school.

Also is many years behind in their learning journey. So they needed one on one. [00:11:00] But through choosing the homeschool them, I've been able to reach that person where they're at. So if you have a child that is a year seven child, but they actually have a year four or year five literacy level…

Their experience at school is not the same as everyone there. And the teachers work very hard. They actually differentiate the work, which means they'll have different types of worksheets with the same information. They are very wise about how they make sure every person can participate. But in the end, this person needs one on one work, right where they're at, and then goals to step up.

It's called scaffolding. Step up, step by step by step. They're now at a year five, year six level, as they're in year eight. And they're continuing to grow. And you know, it's so satisfying to see a young person who perhaps, because of their challenges, wouldn't interact with [00:12:00] schoolwork. Because you don't want to be the person who can't do it.

And it is hard when you see other people around you who can do it. But when you're at home and then you have time to do it, have a good day, have a bad day. You have a try doesn't work, go outside, quick go touch a plant. Go eat some stevia. Come back to the stevia. And then have another go. So those types of timetabling, schools can't always do that. 

I have had days when we first started where the children sometimes unschooled. We did nothing. And then they got bored enough that they did pick up a book. Sometimes you need that for some learners. And then there are -  the other thing I love, love about the homeschool community is a lot of project based learning.

I don't know if I'm allowed to give some shout outs. 

Kirsty: Oh, go, go crazy. 

Dawn: So, Andrew Lord does this awesome program. It's called Blueprint Educational Solutions, also known as blueprintacademy.com. He does amazing programs called Adventure Quest [00:13:00] and Mini Heroes. And these are homeschool programs, but some children have come out of school for the day to do them because they are so successful.

It is based on this awesome pedagogy of understanding how... It's sort of like life coaching, that life, you get presented with a goal, you're going to have a challenge, you've got to work through that challenge, and then revel and reflect on overcoming. And so these activities are set up like that, so the young people might come together, and they're posed with, we're going to climb this mountain, Mount Nellie, and then along the way, we are using, Mathematics and equations with triangles to work out our distance and our height to work out our time.

So it's cross curriculum. And we're working as a team, so there's education happening there. But also, oh, I'm tired. My legs are hurting. So what do you do when your legs hurt? What type of stretches? Do this stretch and that'll help with that muscle. And my daughter did it and then she sent me this picture [00:14:00] of, Mom, I did this. I overcame, I worked with other people and I'm standing on top of this mountain and I worked out some of the maths to get here and this person does not like maths and so I, and then I'm just like, Andrew, you're just amazing at what you do. 

Kirsty: And so it's self esteem building as well.

Dawn: Oh, totally.

Yes, totally. And there is that focus on how do you learn? One of my children draw like tremendously and it's amazing at drawing true bones in the anatomy. Really focused on that, but they had the time to do it because they weren't stopped 45 minutes do something else 45 minutes Do something else 45 minutes do something else, you know? And you know, it's amazing with homeschooling I've discovered with my children when they give themselves a task - like the daughter who's drawing… She's like, I'm going to finish this drawing, and she stayed up all night and finished it.

I couldn't get her to do an assignment at school. But it's amazing now, [00:15:00] after that experience, and she got her grade 10 certificate through homeschooling, and so now after learning about her superpowers on how she learns, she knows how she retains information, she's now entered back into the school system.

To do grade 11 and 12. And she's doing well. She knew what subjects to ask for. She knew how to make goals. Because she had that time away from school to learn how do I have my way of learning. And now that's been reapplied. I really hope that NSW can actually improve in that area. Queensland has had homeschooling increased by 200%.

And they have actually really encouraged relationships where homeschool families can come into a school environment for half days or for some subjects and, and then not. And I know it's quite challenging. South Australia, you can organise what's called negotiated attendance plans, where you negotiate a day off for children to do certain subjects with the family, like religious studies.

So I hope NSW can maybe [00:16:00] marry that together a bit more. Because I think that's one thing at COVID time and COVID unplug from the systems has actually brought out -  that there is this recognising like that self care... If you found out your child wasn't doing well at school and they could take half the time off and then re plug and continue to still get a certificate.

If they don't go to uni through the HSC, they'll go through TAFE. There's like seven other pathways. Our job is to help our children get their learning journey. 

Kirsty: So if any of our listeners are sort of listening to this and thinking, gosh, maybe we need to start considering that homeschool pathway, which I'm sure they all are, I'm thinking now, must homeschool my children.

I mean, what's sort of the, the gateway to that? What are the first things that you would do? How do people plug themselves into this homeschool community? 

Dawn: So you have to apply through NESA and it does come with you recognizing as the adult, you [00:17:00] are pretty much saying I, the adult of my children.

will be taking responsibility for their learning. You are expected to be able to read the public documents, that's the same as teachers read, the curriculum. Not necessarily do the individual tiny little outcomes. Teachers are employed and trained to do individual outcomes and do assessments in that sense.

You don't have to be an expert in any of that. It really is following the NESA's guidelines. They have a guideline that you understand your child will need learning experiences. That you're going to create that in your home. Uh, the joke with homeschooling is that we're never at home. Because in the Grade 8 curriculum for Geography, you actually look at the coastal regions.

And you go out and you do field trips. You can do that at home. You can print out the same syllabus. They even have examples of assessments. And you go, right kids, we're going to go to the beach. We're going to observe [00:18:00] the landforms. We're going to draw them. We're going to get maps. And your children can do a project on the coast.

You can go to the beach every day for a month if you'd like. But you're doing the same valid learning. And of course the challenge is probably capturing that. But there are amazing people who work with NESA who communicate with parents. You do get registered. You do show that you have that learning plan.

You do show that you have understood. What you need to know from the syllabus to ensure that you're taking responsibility and your child is learning. So it's not a carefree, it is carefree, but it's not without accountability. And so I guess when you're at home, you can actually, like I say, go for quality over quantity.

Kirsty: Yeah, I love that. 

It is though, I think a lot of parents -  I'm thinking particularly maybe for, for parents who, for whatever reason, have to work. Maybe they're single parents, maybe, you know, the cost of living is increasing. A lot of parents are not in a position where this is an option for them. So, do you [00:19:00] have any advice on what parents, say parents of autistic children, for example, what should they be looking for in terms of that traditional schooling environment that is going to cater for their kids best, and how, how do you advocate for your kids at school?

Dawn: Yeah, that's such a good question. I think that's the challenge with it, is it's so individual. You have to really reflect, is my child being in some of the amazing, there are amazing programs across Port Macquarie, schools who have got individual classrooms with trained people who understand autism, who can really help your child make, meet them where they're at and help them grow and overcome.

I think communicating with whoever is caring for your child is really essential because if they're creating goals at school and you don't have the same goals at home that that misconnection and not communicating can be really influential. That's one thing I reflect upon. If I think of an area I could have improved on as a teacher [00:20:00] communicating with parents and checking that are we're on the same page that the strategies they were using were the strategies that

I was using And that the child didn't have to have two ways of being. I would, I would actually definitely have tried to make that more precise. And put more effort into that if I was teaching again. 

The challenge also with the finances is you really have to reflect on your life. Yes, maybe both of you, both parents are working.

And you're making quite a good money. But how much money are you spending on therapy? If you're spending $180 for one hour of therapy, and you're paying school fees... If you didn't have to pay those and one of you were at home and you're going to get… it's a long term goal. What type of adult and relationship am I getting?

And that was the sacrifice we made. So one of our children who was medicated to be at school is now not medicated. And for our family, that was a family goal. [00:21:00] Now I'm not saying that they, but they really did need the medication to be in that school, situation where they got stressed. But they were stressed by many people in a room, quick changing in routines, even though people were using lots of strategies.

And a home routine that is very paced has meant that they don't have to have medication. And we've used maybe more behavioural therapy to help that person. It's amazing. It is wonderful, but then of course it's come at a cost. Like may I say, when I was at school with that person and getting messages of how stressed they were, how stressed the whole family was and the money we were wasting on convenient foods because you are tired and you are rushing.

Um, how much time I was like, yep guys, off you go, go jump on technology because I've got to do this marking. I'm not, I don't want to look back and give myself a hard time from the past because I really enjoyed that time. And that was right for [00:22:00] that season.

But yes, we came to another season. And I'm a bit thankful now. And I just want to encourage other people to realise life's in seasons. So you might have a season where you might just homeschool for a small amount of time. Or just know you have options. You might go, well, maybe we can negotiate. Our child does something else one day a week, a mental health day, where they are working on another program.

Because when your child realises how they can overcome, when they realise how they live and find their way with their challenges, then they will continue to grow and then you get the fruit of that. 

Kirsty: I feel like you're starting a revolution here, Dawn. This podcast will be released and school attendance will drop.

And I love that idea of flexibility. We're so, we think so much in a box about education, I think. And, and also how we have to, uh, coordinate our lives and this idea of. Well, they can be part time in school, and you can educate them part time at home, and think [00:23:00] more holistically about the cost you're saving, and my goodness, the amount of times that I roll out chicken nuggets for my kids, because I'm like, I can't make this meal, and it's more expensive, and it's not as good for them.

Dawn: You could be getting weeds from the garden, and they can crack an egg. 

Kirsty: There are certainly weeds there. It could happen. 

Dawn: I don't want it to sound like I'm anti school, because I actually think schools are amazing, and they are so efficient. It is more realizing there is a partnership and a potential there.

There might be some families right now going, I just don't know if we can keep going on this journey where my child's got maybe school refusal. They're not coming home happy. One of the most common times to join homeschooling, if it's not at the beginning of education, it's usually that grade seven when the child's gone to high school and it hasn't been a positive transition. There has been bullying and the child is not in a good place. And for them to know, I want them to [00:24:00] know that your child's journey doesn't have to stop there.

School is a precious place. If your child needs to do another option, it's not like forever, you can homeschool one year at a time, right, and then re engage your child. 

Colin: Do you think in the school system, has it become too result orientated? 

Dawn: I feel like we definitely have that as a pressure point.

I can't remember the exact number, but I know Australia has gone further and further down the educational ranking globally. It is an interesting thing to ponder, have we become too prescribed? I feel if a child is not engaged in learning, then they're just sitting in the classroom. The challenge is I think teachers are trying to be creative.

I love teachers. All the teachers I've met are people who want children to learn. I've chosen that as a career, [00:25:00] but I must admit my creativity and my energy to maybe be more explorative with my learning, that time to put into that would be easily sucked away with the responsibilities of filling in the paperwork, making sure I had dotted the I's and crossed the T's.

And so in the end, you do end up picking strategies that are more efficient. And I do wonder when we're going to maybe acknowledge and trust teachers. who actually do strive on their degrees, they do do lots of professional developments, and yet we say to them, we don't trust you, filling in every piece of paper, we don't trust you. You know what we were saying before, you know, validating you go out and sit in the field, and that's a valid learning.

You know, if I take children out for a drama lesson out on the Oval.. I remember someone saying to me, Oh, so you just had a bit of fun with them on the oval. No, actually, we were [00:26:00] learning there. We just did it outside. We still have that unhealthy, stereotypical view that a good student has a white shirt on and all the worksheets filled in and can write perfect essays.

In real life, only 33% of children who finish HSC actually go to university. There's so many, how many jobs are there other skills? And I think TAFE and a lot more programs, they recognize that. And I think they have made changes, but we still, it's like we're still seeing it come into place. So I do worry that education and the pressure on teachers is not giving us the fruit we want.

We say we want this fruit, but we're not actually giving the teachers the space to give us what we want.

Colin: So we're actually making it harder. 

Dawn: Some teachers would say that. Some teachers would definitely say that we're making it harder for them. 

Kirsty: The Royal Commission on Disability has been looking into this idea of education and mainstreaming kids with disability versus [00:27:00] these specialised disability education ideas.

And from what I have seen, it looks like they're going to come out on the side of all children with disability should be mainstreamed. We need to do away with this idea of specialised disability education. What are your thoughts? 

Dawn: Oh, that's a very good one. Well, I've got to go back, I guess, to my ethos, which is we need to find a way for people to learn.

I really do validate and find value in inclusion. The challenge with inclusion is investing in the educators and having enough of them there to make sure when someone is included that no one else is disadvantaged. I did have my children come home and say, oh, it was really hard today, because such and such in my class was having a bad day, they were having a meltdown, they weren’t responding well, they were physically violent, they were not learning, and the [00:28:00] rest of the class was distracted, didn't reach their outcomes, and didn't feel safe.

Now, That's a lot of pressure on a teacher too. Huge. A lot of pressure on a teacher. Teachers do everything possible to avoid that situation. Some of the educators I know, they do so much on professional behavior management. They're really learning to diffuse, diffuse, diffuse, but sometimes a kid just needs someone else to go out and give them that one on one. What happens if the answer is, Kids need one on one. Are we going to actually give them one on one? Because you know what? If you had 30 kids in a classroom and six of them need one on one, then you've got seven adults in that classroom. Just imagine the creativity and the positive culture you can build in that classroom if you had those resources.

But it is the challenge. In a sense, it comes at a cost as well. Same cost that parents are choosing if they want to stay home with their kids. [00:29:00] That's a cost. But the government's got to think of a cost if we really want included classrooms where everyone feels safe. Where if someone goes, I need to go outside and breathe, do breathing exercises to ground myself because the activity we've just done has overwhelmed me.

And the teacher can continue to do their job, which is to stretch, make sure concepts are going across and consider the children who are gifted because it's gifted children who need to be carried as well. So, inclusion is probably amazing. It's probably necessary. But when you realize something's necessary, don't you prepare for it and invest in it?

Kirsty: Right. That's an amazing point. I love that. Dawn, I mean I, Colin, you probably feel the same way. I feel like I could talk to you for hours. There's so much more I want to talk about. 

Colin: So much. 

Kirsty: So much. So we're going to get you back. Will you come back? 

Dawn: I would be delighted, because I am delightful, Dawn. 

I would be delighted to come back. 

Kirsty: We [00:30:00] would love that so much. And we could even... I mean, send us your questions guys. We could have a regular ask - what do we -  ask Aunty Dawn? 

Dawn: Ask Aunty Dawn. She'll have a go.

Kirsty:. That's right. Thank you for being here. Thank you very much. It's been amazing. Delightful Dawn. Thanks.

And thanks for tuning in everybody who is listening and we will see you next time. 

Colin: Bye bye.