#5 Dawn Bayly (Pt 1 of 2): Super Mum, Cycle-Breaker

Imagine going through life not wanting children, and then ending up with seven? That's Dawn Bayly's story. 

As a result of her own challenging upbringing, Dawn did not want to have any children, or to even get married. Now she has been married for over 20 years, and has seven children through a mix of biology, kinship and fostering. Two of her children are neurodiverse, with autism spectrum disorder and ADHD. 

In this episode we talk what it takes to break a cycle, setting up positive traditions in your family, and how to know when you've taken on too much. 

You might even learn a few strategies to survive the zombie apocalypse. 

Transcripts available for each episode on the website: https://enabled.buzzsprout.com

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This episode is brought to you by Ability Advocators:
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Transcript

Kirsty: Right. Welcome back to Enabled, the podcast where we talk about, normalise and celebrate disability and mental health. And I'm joined today, as always, by the delightful, Colin Lowe. Hey, Colin. 

Colin: Delight. I've never been called delightful.

Kirsty: I mean, why not.

Colin: That I, I don't really know. Maybe I am delightful. 

Kirsty: Sure.

Colin: Who knows. 

Kirsty: Let's go with that. 

Colin: Thanks Kirsty. Yeah.

Kirsty: You're welcome. Well, we've got a bit of a treat as well in store for our listeners today because we are speaking to a wonderful Port Macquarie local who, I mean, let's face it, is basically famous at this point. We have Dawn Bayly. How you going, Dawn?

Dawn: Also known as delightful Dawn. 

Kirsty: I like that, delightful Dawn. Let's do that. Well, you have, you've been a guest on another podcast, you were featured on the ABC. And, I mean, now you're here with us at Enabled, which I'm sure will be-

Colin: a highlight 

Kirsty: -of all of those things. Absolutely. Dawn, can you just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you connect to the disability and mental health community? 

Dawn: Okay. So yes, I'm just a mom, had four children. I 3D printed four of my own. Two of them are on the spectrum. And then our family was extended by having two other people come and live with us through the foster care system.

And then my lovely sister passed away in a car accident and her son survived and we adopted him through kinship. We also have other children that come and visit us for time, for respite through the foster care system. So sometimes we have a lots of children going on and we love and enjoy them. And because we do, because we have children on the spectrum, because we have children who have ADHD and trauma, we have had to explore and be creative. In our every day. And then you realise you've created your own healthy culture and that you're helping your children overcome. And become more able, with, with their challenges and seeing their mental health improve. 

Kirsty: I mean, I feel like that's the dream. You talked about creating a culture for your family, like that's the dream of most parents with this idea of like wanting to parent intentionally, but it's potentially for most parents, it feels beyond our reach. It feels it's, it's just too hard. I don't know. What do you think, Colin? 

Colin: I look back and I think of that whole village idea, that there were families that were there, close-knit, all interacting together, all passing on what they knew. And I think that's gone a lot from our society now. 

Kirsty: And the expectations for parents are higher as well, so less support, higher expectations. It's tough. 

Colin: Yeah. Well, and so your idea of the way that you are raising your family is more like that. Now you can connect with other families as well and you can all pass on information together and help all the children to grow to be more able to participate well in our, in our world.

Dawn: And it sounds really fancy because we, it sounds like a really big concept. We've gone right, how do we get these children ready to be adults? Yeah. So just bringing it back a bit and grounding it a bit, that there is always a way. I do drama workshops and it's called Drama Away. And the reason why is I always believe there's a way that we can go through things and you're getting to know your child's personality, their challenges, but you're also finding out, well, how do we find your way?

And then connecting it to that big concept we were talking about is how does our family join all these little ways together? Then we create a family tradition. We create a family culture and then someone comes over and goes, oh, I really love how all your children hang in hammocks in the afternoon, in the backyard with a book.

How did you start that? Well, it started with a swing chair and me reading with one book, and it spoke to one child, and then I couldn't fit too many children on that swing chair. And then it grew to the hammock, and then it grew to, this really helps our family calm down after a big day. I role model that.

They follow through that. And then before you know it, then you see these young people who say, I'm a bit overwhelmed. And you say, do you think you need the hammock time? And it's not therapy. It's this is our way and this is your way that you self-soothe, that you calm, that you reflect, and it's a good way.

It's not therapy anymore, it's just you being a human, your person in the world. 

Kirsty: Dawn, I feel like I just have so many questions for you, but even just listening to you talk now, my biggest one is like, just logistically from a mum's perspective, I have two kids. I feel like I'm running on empty all the time.

I mean, how much sleep are you getting? How, how? How do you do this? And can you please be my personal mentor? 

Colin: Mentor.

Kirsty: Because seriously how?

Dawn: Well I think- that's a very good question. Has there been seasons where I haven't had a lot of sleep? Yep. And then I've had to find my way to self care. Because that's really important. I am very blessed with a lovely husband and he's a night owl, and I'm the early morning “dawn”. What's the chances? What's the chances? So I love getting up early in the morning preparing and that really connects with half our children. And some of the other children really like being late.

And my husband is amazing with people late at night talking and communicating with them. We are very strategic. I'm very blessed. After my years of being a teacher, you learn to be organising. You learn how to maybe group your activities. Set up systems so that things continue. I do try to make sure I rest. I sometimes have an afternoon rest time.

I think you create, we're creating culture, you're creating habits. Yeah. I am definitely making sure I do get breaks. But then I also, you have to teach children what they do when you're on a break. You can't just leave them hanging. And sometimes being able to rest is the fruit of your choices.

So if I've done lots with them and I've set them all up for success, when I say, guys, I need 20 minutes. In this 20 minutes, you are meant to be doing this, this, this. There's food in this basket here, if you get hungry. You know you can interrupt for these reasons. Once you set that up, it's quite fine.

And as much as you think, 'oh no, I've got to get out there and help them!' but you're actually teaching them how to care for themselves. You go, no, I'm allowed to go to the toilet. So you can wait. And sometimes when they say, well, I need, well, that's right. Well, that's important too, because you are trying to teach self-care as well, right?

Kirsty: Yes, absolutely. And so you mentioned your husband. How long have you been married for? 

Dawn: That's a good question. What if I get it wrong? I think it's 24.

Colin: Be careful. 

Dawn: 24. 24. He does dates, names. I do kids, right? 24 years. Roundabout more than 20. Let's, we met at uni. Yeah. Doing a teaching degree. I wasn't going to get married.

I wasn't going to have any children.

Kirsty: Oh, wow. 

Dawn: And before I knew it, I was married in my third year at uni.

Kirsty: So when you say, I mean, before you, before you met your husband, you, you didn't want kids, you didn't want to get married. Obviously your life is wildly different from that now. Did you talk about, you know, either before you got married or afterwards, what you wanted your family to look like? And was four kids and then fostering children in, in the equation? Did you want to do that from the outset? 

Dawn: Do you know… When I was young, I just, I think, well, one in three children in Australia have quite challenging childhoods.

So saying that you've had a challenging childhood is not really special. A lot of people have challenging childhoods. 

Kirsty: Still valid though.

Dawn: Still very valid. Yes. And I definitely had adults who cared about me but then had lots of challenges. Family separation and cycles. Unhealthy cycles.

So after that, and then having a, a season where I was homeless, I just didn't really think I had the capacity. Actually, as a young person, I didn't have the capacity to create a family, which is probably why I had those goals. And I wasn't going to get married and not have children because I thought, well, I don’t know if I could do that.

Kirsty: Well, let's, let's talk about that for a second, because that's basically what you've had to be then talking about your previous history is you've had to in your family break a cycle. 

Dawn: Yes. And I'm very passionate about breaking those cycles. That's -  things stopping with us and talking about finding a new way. Connecting back to that, sometimes it's recognizing, oh, I have an unhealthy way of coping. Especially with some of the children that come with trauma, you can't shame them. If they've had a food eating issue, for example, where they've had to sneak or steal food because their need was not met. When they come to live with us, I can't shame them.

They needed that skill. For whatever circumstances they were in. The best thing I can do is help them recognize that that's one way that they have learned to do something. because they do deserve food. They do have a need. They are listening to their bodies that need to be validated. But how do I empower them?

How do I empower them to get food without being deceptive or without lying or without sneaking. And so some of the ways we've done that a bit creatively is that I have a garden. And to teach them to go out and forage their own food, that you are not dependent on an adult to find food, that you can go in a safe garden and you can get, we'll start with tomatoes.

You can get tomatoes anytime, and then you can get spring onions and then this power in our family got so powerful. They were like, I'm going to get an egg from the chickens. I'm going to get a tomato. So it all sounds quite normal. But then it went onto the next level where we started researching, oh my goodness.

See that dandelion over there that's called a weed? You can actually eat that. Stop it. And then it was like, that's a purslane. You can eat that. And then these kids, it's like they, they were empowered so much they wanted to learn. I'd actually been a bit unwell at that stage. And I remember looking out and seeing all the dandelions myself and going, wow, look how much I have.

You know, because sometimes when you have a lot of children and you've got a lot going on, you can sometimes worry about your finances. Mm-hmm. But then we realised we had so much in our backyards, so seeing them get excited. It's always exciting when you see a young person open a book and they're like, look at that.

And they're saying, identifying features. And they're double checking with you. The moment they start communicating, you see them taking ownership of their learning. And so then we started making a game at it. We're going to have fix-your-noodles night, so here's your two minute noodles. You have to fix them and make them healthy.

So here's an egg, and go get the greens, come in and check them. And then for them to show me these beautiful plates with chopsticks, with an egg on the side and three vegetables, and then even them saying, I don't like that one. But if I add salt to it and I mix it with this one, then I like it.

Kirsty: Wow.

Dawn: They've found a way. And see, when you teach, when you let people know they can do that, how empowering is that? Yeah, and can I say, I truly believe good strategies are good for all people or children. Knowing how to do that is good, if you have autism, if you have adhd, if you have trauma, if you're an everyday person learning to be an efficient adult, learning how to find your way. To overcome things.. Everyone deserves that. 

Kirsty: Yeah, a hundred percent. 

Dawn: The other side of it too is that we've more gone out to people's farms because when you go out to people's farms and you know that they're organic farms, there's some amazing local farms here, and they even have like kitchen cooking kitchen experiences.

For them to know that they can go out to a farm and take their knowledge and participate in another part of the community and even get to the point where it's independent from me. Yeah. That's a victory. 

Colin: That is.

Kirsty: Incredible. Yeah. This really appeals to my sort of apocalyptic emergency. Like, I feel like you would survive the zombie apocalypse.

Colin: Are you a prepper?

Kirsty: No. You know, I'm not organised enough to be a prepper, but in my mind, if I could do one thing I. Other than, you know, being a better mom and all those sorts of brilliant- I would love to feel like I could survive the zombie apocalypse. I die immediately in an actual zombie apocalypse. And I actually genuinely want to do an episode about this.

Colin: I'm going to Dawn's. 

Kirsty: Yes. Let's go to Dawn's house. 

Dawn: Be harvesting the wheat. Can I just say on that though? Cause I have had the kids go, are we preppers? And we go, no. Well look at it this way. It is. Those skills would be useful if something like that happened, but those skills actually help you save money.

So learning that you can save money by being resourceful. So that's still a great skill.

Kirsty: That's incredible.

Dawn: You know, so that's still a skill for life. And if anything else happens, you're just a bit more calmer than everyone else who is running around screaming, yahoo'in. 

Kirsty: I want to, I want to just take this a step back for a second because I don't want to forget about this question.

So, I mean, you're obviously, you're helping all of the children that come into your world to learn how to break their own cycles. But how did you break yours? How did you get from a person who said, my childhood was so difficult and I was effectively out of, out of the care of my family for a period. How do you go from that person to a person who's able to say, this ends with me.

I am going to create a safe family where children are secure and I'm also going to teach other people. Most people can't break cycles. Not from any fault of their own. It is incredibly hard. How do you do that? 

Dawn: That's a very big question, Kirsty. So, you know, like I said, I have, I have members of my family who tried really hard. So I don't want it to sound like I have family members who don't care. Yeah. They totally cared and tried to help. Yeah. But young people can get themselves really torn up and we can have really unhealthy cycles. I actually did find a lot of solace. I actually became a person of faith. 

Kirsty: Right.

Dawn: And being a praying person and reading some of those faithful principles, I really made amazing relationships with mentors who helped me. Recognized that I had an unhealthy pattern. Didn't self care, didn't value myself. And then build relationships over years. And some of these mentors were very blessed.

They came from amazing families. Their parents and their aunties had mentored them. And the fact that they were able stretch themselves to include little old me, I just felt honoured and I think that's why I always feel like I can stretch myself. Because it's not really much more of a stretch when you realise it did- it changed my future. Yeah. It changed the type of parent I became. It changed how I parented my children and yeah, it changed how I do things now. And so I think when you realize and believe in the restoration of the human soul, that humans and young people can be redeemed. Then they are ready for a future.

And that is like they’ve got to find their way in the world. And there is always a way, and you'll hear me say it, there's always I say it, sometimes the kids will come up to me, I can't do this. Let's find your way. Let's find, I can't do my shoelace up. Let's find your way. Do you ask someone else? Do you need me to put black elastic through there so it looks like you've got laces, but they actually stretch and you never have to do them again. Do you need different shoes? Do you have to wear shoes today? What's your way? One of my children just doesn't want to wear shoes unless he has to. And for this season, that's okay. And he might become a surfer.

And he won't have to wear shoes. He can do all these professional talks in boardies, absolutely no shoes and a board, and he'll be fine. 

Kirsty: I mean, that's, that's the dream, isn't it? Good for him. Well, let's, let's talk a little bit more about, about motherhood then. Because it is, it's quite an intense experience and you, I, I feel like.

Maybe it's fair to say, have a bit of an amplified experience of motherhood. And it's potentially one of the most significant identity shifts that most women will go through in their lives. And there's this, this term, actually, I don't know if you've heard of this, Colin. There's this term called matrescence.

Have we heard of that?

Dawn: No. 

Colin: Nope. 

Kirsty: It's so, that's a term that they're using. It's kind of like adolescence. But instead of it being the process of transitioning from a child to an adult, it's the process of becoming a mother. And I really like it because I feel like it acknowledges and recognises that it's not seamless.

It is a process. It's uncomfortable. It can be really hard. It can feel different to what you wanted it to. There's crazy hormones. So what was that experience of becoming a mother like for you, and have you struggled with things like keeping your own identity? So often, I know for me, I feel like my identity just gets absorbed in my kids and in being a mum, and they take up so much space in my head that I… I find it hard to be a whole person, you know, aside from them. Have you struggled with that? What's your- 

Dawn: Definitely. Oh, girlfriend. Mm-hmm. Colin, you might not feel like you're a part of this part of the conversation. 

Colin: I was just sitting here. 

Kirsty: Just be delightful in your corner over there. 

Colin: I'll be delightful.

Dawn: Just support us with some basic head nodding, my friend.

I would say I was consumed with responsibility. There is this whole, I guess it's the same theme. How did I find my way? Yeah. And I do love learning and overcoming in that sense. But really it is coming back to that, finding that one mentor, one or two or really close group to grow with.

Because you cannot do it all. I am not alone. I have an amazing community of friends that I reach out to. I feel like I've always been learning. How each child is different. My firstborn followed the textbook. Really went to a feeding routine. Responded. My next two, they didn't. And my third, I remember actually a time actually holding him and he was, oh, crying like a blender.

And I'm thinking, why can't he feel how much I love him? Why can't he feel, how much? Why is he not connecting? Just to discover years later, oh, he's on the spectrum, right? I'm there for him. And he couldn't feel my love. He's learning sensory things. But the good news is over a lifetime I've learning about him, we do communicate love with each other. Mainly through games with that one. 

Kirsty: Yeah. Wow. 

Dawn: And it is that, it is that realising that it's, it's different with every child. 

Kirsty: Right. And how do you connect.

We've just had a little break for Colin to deal with some coughing issues. We're all a little bit scratchy today. So we were talking about motherhood and all of that sort of thing.

And, and so you've obviously, you're a mum to your biological kids, you're a mum to, is it three foster kids? 

Dawn: It's a bit tricky, but yes and no. Yes, but then kinship. So kinship is a process in Australia where you are recognised as a kin. Yep. And then yeah, have a child under that legislation.

Colin: I didn't, I've never heard that before. Kinship.

Kirsty: And I suppose especially with that kinship situation that you have, so that was from your, your sister had died in a car accident, is that right? Yeah, and I guess that sort of touches on something that I, I think it is probably universal to the fostering experience, which is that it's really entwined with grief and trauma, whether that be the loss in whatever way of biological parents or that instability of being moved from home to home. How does that impact on your family and the family unit and how do you navigate that sort of the grief and the trauma that kids bring with them in your, in your home? 

Dawn: It is such an honour to be able to include some people, any people in your home. I think because we've been able to build some good habits. We have had maybe some quirky ways of doing, so if someone comes in and they've had issues of fear, they can't sleep, they are bit overwhelmed. 

Kirsty: I can't imagine what it must be like for a child to be put into a stranger's house and then said like, shower in here, sleep here, like put yourself in vulnerable positions in a stranger's home. So hard.

Dawn: I actually think Australia has an amazing training for people who choose to do foster care.

Kirsty: Great.

Dawn: And they have a really high standard, you know, you do get training. We had to do trauma training. We have amazing case workers who are well informed. I do that feel like that's an area that Australia is really trying to improve and help a lot of young people who go into the social work area.

Kirsty: Awesome. 

Dawn: Because it's so important to have that really carefully done because it is a big, big change. Most children get connected with family. We do in New South Wales, we have a family first policy. They are seeking family. Yeah. When that's not possible, they're coming to another family. And it's like having a sleepover.

You're having fun at auntie Dawn's and we try to face like, oh, come to Auntie Dawn's, we are going to have dinner together. What do you like to eat? And they'll have like, we'll have a pat of a rabbit, we might like look around the garden. We do try and encourage some of those sensory things, play. Sometimes when there's a lot of stress going around, you can't think.

Going somewhere and having a play, having a laugh, playing with other children. A very common thing, when you are taken from your family, you are isolated. Being able to play with other children and our children have now over time, incidentally, but also I'm so proud, have built these skills of inclusion and they don't judge.

They don't go, oh, that person's got a different way. They go, oh, well I've got a different way. Let them have their way. Going to the beach, I, I think most people say a walk on the beach is amazing, but for some children going on the beach, feeling the sands, it's so grounding. And that's another word we try to use.

We don't necessarily try to say that we're doing therapy. We're like, how do you ground yourself? How do you self-care? Going out and getting the weeds. That might sound a bit corny, but children who are going outside, going in the sunlight, smelling the plants, touching the grounds, so good for you. When you have been uprooted, you are going to different buildings, different smells, different people.

Nature sort of smells the same everywhere. The sun comes up. Trees are still special and so sometimes for some children that's really effective. When we get a new child, we really try to find out those things that ground them. Yeah. And having a go. I do love that. I go, well, let's just have a go. Let's have a go doing it this way and see if you like it.

One of the other children really struggled. With food seems to be a common one that we can talk, talk about. Really struggled with food and hoarding food, and when I taught them how to cook their own egg and make their own cheese and egg toasted sandwich and I said, you could have one of these anytime.

And I had all the ingredients there. When they realised, of course, there was a couple of days where they ate way too many of them. Pendulum went a little bit too far. Yeah. But I think they needed to experience that and then they pendulum back. Yeah. And then they don't even realise I've overcome something.

There's no more food hiding under the beds. Amazing. You know? But it is a journey and guess what? I've also done that with another child and it didn't work. Right. You know what I mean? And we actually had to try other strategies. Yeah. And sometimes see a therapist because some children they have a lot of sugar addiction.

Cause the sugar is a good feeling. And when you have lots of bad feelings happening around you, you will hold onto that one good feeling. And if that is eating white sugar out of every cafe free little sugar packet you can find on the way. And that is, that is a good strategy for survival from a small amount of time.

But the teeth suffer and you have to be very gentle to help a child overcome that and be patient with that. And then you have the other children going, why are they having sugar on their weet bix? And you go, well, you used to, but now you don't need to. Yes. And then that's the other thing. The other children are role models.

Where they can say, oh, I used to like sugar a lot now, and now I'm trying to have this sugar. We actually have Stevia plants, anyone. Yeah. So Stevia's very, very sweet plant. And we get that with a peppermint leaf and you roll it together and it tastes like an after dinner mint. It's amazing.

And it's amazing how they love that they feel like they're having a treat, but it's no calories. Super sweet. 

Kirsty: I should do this for my own sugar addiction. 

Dawn: And once again though, it's not just the fact that they've had, I don't go pick it for them. The fact that they've gotta go outside, touch the ground, find it, smell it, a lot of is actually showing how these habits of being… In our society, we got so busy.

We may have missed some of these habits of being, being a part of nature, being outside some, some children just need to rediscover those. 

Kirsty: Yeah. Amazing. Did you ever consider not fostering, was that ever- 

Dawn: Like I said, after having my own experiences, seeing people take me in And mentor me and me realize that that revelation - people can be restored.

I really always wanted to have the chance to do it, but it was about finding the right season. I did ensure that my own children with their challenges, had strategies. We had a family meeting. Can we, even when we had one of our nephews come and live with us through kinship, we said, can, can you share your mum and dad?

Can we stretch ourselves? Right? And we talked about what it would mean and what it wouldn't mean. And they said, yes, that's fine. That's fine, mum and dad, and then, Of course, a week later when they come and it's noisy, then they're like, I'm not so sure now-

Kirsty: Can we have another meeting? 

Dawn: Can we have another meeting? But I think over time it is that funny thing you, you think, oh, this person's new, and then six months later it's just your family. It's just a fair- especially if you've established good habits, because of course we've had to, we've been in seasons of bad habits. I'm not a superhero. I have definitely had times when I went, wow. I'm reacting, not responding. I have got tired because I'm a bit of a person who will just keep going. And my husband will say to me, love, do you see your, you’re not resting and you are, you are reacting more? Yeah. It's very easy to get in unhealthy cycles. Yeah. With our children. And we don't even realize because we are busy, we're answering all the messages and we've got all these adults things to do.

Too much adulting. I think that's why I appreciate that I have had great friends, great school communities, and great now homeschool communities to go through all those seasons where I've got someone who will gently say, Dawn, you've stretched yourself. Pull back. And when to go. Okay, now you're allowed to be busy.

Kirsty: Yeah. 

Colin: And I, I think in saying that, that we can make our children's lives too busy because we want them to be involved in everything. So we can be involved in sports and Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, we're at swimming club and, and then we're at football, and then we do whatever. 

Kirsty: Learn an instrument, do this- 

Colin: Yeah. And the kids, we actually create the problem that the kids become so busy that they don't have time to sit in the hammock out the back because they're too busy doing all these- and we think we're doing the right thing. But we actually need to let them relax and just enjoy being, themselves. 

Dawn: I think it's just about the concept of value.

Like, oh, I paid for that course and so we value it. It's like, oh, they're sitting out in a field on a farm. Do we value that? And yet, like a lot of people talk about mental health, like, oh no, you need to value that. I think that our society, when someone says, what are you doing? You're like, you might sit, sit down on a chair.

Oh, I'm just. Chilling. Well, no. What if you are self soothing? What if you are self caring? You have to. Sometimes I've even written down, someone goes, oh, can you come to this appointment? And I look on my diary and I've written, I've got an appointment with myself. 

Kirsty: Oh wow. You schedule in. 

Dawn: Yeah. And my husband and I also have date nights every Thursday night, yeah. We have someone come and take care of the children, so no one needs to babysit. Someone comes in and takes care of their children and we go out, have a date night. The first hour, you just you, you just rediscover. Hello, what's your name? Sometimes you feel like you've done nothing. Oh, we just went and walked around Kmart.

Colin: We busted them on one of their date nights the other week. 

Kirsty: Amazing. 

Dawn: Yes, we, we were sharing a pizza and then walk around Kmart. So romantic and productive. 

Kirsty: Oh, I mean, Kmart - pretty fun place to be, but yeah.

Dawn: But it does actually just hold onto that. If, if you can look at that in one view and go, well, they're just hanging out. Or you can look at another view. These people choosing to invest in their marriage. because we know when we're working well together, we can stretch. If we are not connected and we're not okay.

Then we, that influences our decision making. Totally. And so I make sure I have that time. And then of course, sometimes, you just go and look for the next birthday present because there's always a birthday coming up. There's always a birthday. 

Colin: It would be. 

Kirsty: Yes. I, I love that concept of just sort of imbuing value into your time and yeah, letting, letting those sort of things that seem run of the mill, reminding yourself, this is valuable, this is important, let's make the, most of this. Research shows that the satisfaction of a relationship or in a marriage declines pretty dramatically after children. So I love that you guys have gone, let's be really intentional about this because we need to be working for our kids to, to function.

Dawn: And it is an investment. I think it's remembering that we are just still people too, and we still like each other. Yes. And there are those times of encouraging and that accountability, you know, where my husband can say to me, I'm proud of you, but you need to pull back a bit here. Or I've been missing this. And for me to say to him, man, I really admire how you are able to connect with these young men.

I have the nurturing, but he has like the goal stretching. Yeah. You know, this is how it is to be a man in this world. I can't give some of the young men those views. I think if I was going to give any advice, we've had time where we’ve had new children and new seasons. It's been challenging. And when I realized that we are doing well, it's cause the fun’s come back. And I just want to pop that in there. If you are having a bit of a hard time and you wonder if you're doing too much, ask yourself if the fun's still there. Because if you are not having fun, if you're not laughing, I'm not, I'm not saying all the time.

But I feel like sometimes, how do we know when we've taken on too much? How do we know that the relationship with my child is so intense? I must fix them. Must help them. Must organise them. Must get them to those appointments. Where's the fun? Sometimes it's going, you know what? You're not going to the appointment, we're going to sneak away. I'm getting you a milkshake. Yep. You know you're not just a project. You're a person. Let's go sneak off and get a milkshake together.

Kirsty: I love that. Oh my gosh. I feel like we could just end the podcast here and be like, here's the takeaway guys. That's so simple but brilliant, and we just forget. I forget. 

Dawn: Here's another funny one. This will make you laugh. I remember one time when my children were very young and I was having… I don't have bad days anymore. This is another thing. I don't have bad days. I have bad 20 minutes. If it is bad for 20 minutes, then I go, right, whatever I'm doing is not working.

I've got to do something else. So I was having a bad 20 minutes and I was like, right, everyone get in the car. We are going to get a McDonald's ice cream. So we went through and they went. Ah, thanks for this. Were we good? No. No. You were not good. No. We've had a bad day, but I still love you. Yeah. And we are going to have this ice cream and our day's going to be different.

Yeah. And it was that going out, doing something different. 

Kirsty: You're- I'm about to cry. You're like making me really emotional over here. 

Dawn: You don't deserve that ice cream, but you do. Because we are just going to do family together. Yeah. We’ve got to do life together. Yeah. And then we went home and guess what?

We had a better day. Yeah. Like we had a bad 20 minutes. And sometimes we do, we have bad 20 minutes, a few doors get slammed, someone gets angry and I just say, everyone go find your space. And you know, and some days, guess what? It's okay not to get anything done. I really feel like we have to validate that.

Because we have such a push, push. Get to your appointments. You're letting your kids down if they don't do all the subjects and all the activities. Right. We don't want to come up bankrupt with young people who don't actually want to be our friends when they're adults. Yes. We don't want to get to that point.

We want our children to go, I still want to talk to that adult. I still, I remember connecting over milkshakes. 

Yep. That's amazing. I love that. I love that so much.